Monday, August 6, 2012

Briggs on TLS and tone

Statistician William M. Briggs is beginning a series of posts on my book The Last Superstition.  In the first installment he considers the polemical tone of the book and tells his readers to get any remarks on that subject out of their systems now so that he can move on to more substantive matters in future posts.  Briggs writes:

Feser gives us a manly Christianity, in muscular language.  His words oft have the tone of a teacher who is exasperated by students who have, yet again, not done their homework.  The exasperation is justifiable…

Feser… does not suffer (arrogant) fools well—or at all.  This perplexes some readers who undoubtedly expect theists to be soft-spoken, meek, and humble to the point of willing to concede miles to gain an inch.  Feser is more of a theological Patton: he is advancing, always advancing, and is not interested in holding on to anything except the enemy’s territory.  This stance has startled some reviewers.  Typical is [one reviewer] who ignores the meat of the book and whines about “ad hominems.”
 
And of my characterization of certain New Atheist writers as ill-informed, incompetent, intellectually dishonest, etc., Briggs says:

Keep in mind… that these are all questions of fact, not metaphysics.  If Feser can prove them—I say he can—this is fine.

This is something that people who complain about the tone of the book should keep in mind.  If a critic haughtily dismisses arguments of the caliber of Aquinas’s while at the same time showing that he has got his basic facts about the arguments wrong, then to point out that such a critic is either incompetent or intellectually dishonest is just to make a straightforward statement of fact, and one that is highly relevant to evaluating the critic’s work.  If you think it commits an ad hominem fallacy to call attention to unpleasant but relevant truths about a writer’s knowledge of his subject (or lack thereof), then you don’t know what an ad hominem fallacy is.  (By the way, it would be an ad hominem fallacy to dismiss my own arguments simply because you don’t like my tone.  Just sayin’.)

You also don’t understand Christian morality if you think it forbids ever rhetorically taking the hide off of an opponent.  Former atheist Leah Libresco recently objected to the tone of The Last Superstition, and even implied that it was contrary to “put[ting] on Christ.”  As I wrote in response:

Re: the polemical tone of my book The Last Superstition, I understand that it is not to everyone’s taste. That’s fine. However, I must object to the suggestion that the tone of the book is contrary to Christian morality. That is not true. Those who suppose that polemics are always wrong are like those who suppose that violence is always wrong in failing to make some morally crucial distinctions. I’ve defended the appropriateness of polemics under some (by no means all, but some) circumstances in several blog posts, which interested readers can find here:




Nor is a polemical approach to adversaries by any means unusual in biblical and Church history. Christ’s harsh words against the Pharisees are well known. Elijah was sarcastic with the priests of Baal, and God with Job. Many saints have engaged in harsh polemics over the centuries. You’ll find examples in chapter 20 of a 19th century book called Liberalism is a Sin by Fr. Felix Sarda y Salvany, and a theological defense of the appropriateness of polemics under certain circumstances both in that chapter and in chapter 21. You can find the book online here:


As the title alone indicates, that book too is bound to be offensive to some. (As the reader will discover from the introductory material, a critic of the book at the time it appeared tried to get the Vatican to condemn it. The Vatican responded by praising it.) But whatever one thinks of the overall book, the points made in the chapters I’ve referred to are sound.

And in response to one of Libresco’s readers, who suggested that an aggressive tone was counterproductive even if not strictly contrary to Christian morality, I wrote:

Re: the… tone of [The Last Superstition], please keep in mind that no single book can reach every reader at the same time, and not all potential readers are gentle, fair-minded atheists like the pre-conversion Leah Libresco. There are, first of all and most importantly, a lot of people both on the religious side and on the fence who are so impressed by the absurdly self-confident rhetoric and apparent prestige of the New Atheists that they suppose there must be something powerful in their arguments, and this supposition will remain even after one has patiently explained the defects in their books. Sometimes, “breaking the spell” of a powerful rhetorical illusion requires equal and opposite rhetorical force (if I can borrow Dennett’s phrase). When you treat an ignorant bully arguing in bad faith as if he were a serious thinker worthy to be engaged respectfully, you only reinforce his prestige and maintain the illusion that he might be onto something. You thereby make it easier for people to fall into the errors the bully is peddling. Again, see the blog posts I linked to and the chapters from Fr. Sarda y Salvany for more on the reasons why polemics are sometimes not merely allowable but called for.

I also think people overstate the extent to which atheist readers will be put off. Some atheist readers, sure. But there are also atheists whose confidence in atheism is largely sustained by the vigor and self-confidence of the people on their side coupled with the timidity, defensiveness, and halfway-apologetic responses of some people on the other, religious side. To see people from the religious side hitting back with equal force and exposing certain prominent atheists not merely as mistaken, but as ignorant and foolish, can shock some of these atheist readers out of their complacency.

Finally, not all atheists are that sensitive. They can read a book like The Last Superstition with a sense of humor and realize (as I have made it clear in that book and elsewhere) that the polemics and sarcasm are directed not at all atheists but rather at (a) certain ideas (and a reasonable atheist should be able to carry out the intellectual exercise of separating himself from his ideas so as to look at the latter objectively) and (b) at obnoxious, puffed up atheists like Dawkins and Co. (and a reasonable atheist should be willing to admit that Dawkins and Co. are asking for it). If the shoe doesn’t fit some particular atheist, I’m not forcing him to wear it.

Finally, if that special atheist someone you are trying to reach simply doesn’t like polemics, there is of course always the respectably genteel Aquinas.  Something for everyone!

790 comments:

  1. dguller... Who said society is suppose to make sense ?

    A dude married his hand.... I think sense is not even part of the discussion about these things anymore.

    Now, that we disagree here, but really.... We could come to that day where marrying to oneself is something.... Normal.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Damn, I meant " I dont disagree with you, about what you said..."

    ReplyDelete
  3. "But that is cruel! Imagine that you had same-sex attractions, and imagine how much it would suck when, without you having a say in the matter, you are forced by a recognition of Natural Law morality to go your entire life without physically expressing your romantic affections! How can we constrict a person into living a life without romance?"

    Cruel indeed, oh, so cruel. I know because I speak from experience. In fact, the reason I am posting anonymously is because I am afraid to reveal myself as a hallesexual (someone who has uncontrollable sexual attraction to a person who is Halle Berry). Many people are fairly accepting of this fact, but there are those who only taunt ("What, you've never seen Catwoman, huh?" ... and some of these people call themselves Christians!) Be that as it may, it is a hard life. Some of you no doubt will simply be unable to comprehend what it is like to have urges irresistibly directed at Halle Berry (though, thanks to the Internet, I know that at least I am not the only such person!)… I remain defiant against the bigoted proclamations that I must suppress my romantic affections and never be permitted to express them physically. After all, I never asked to be this way! Therefore, God made me this way, and therefore to decry my natural impulses is to rebel against the Almighty! The time is surely fast approaching when I can count on the support of my fellow enlightened citizens to cheer on oppressed minorities like me in the righteous march towards expanded civil rights! I may yet live to see the day when the state redefines "consent" to mean "if I want to mate with Halle, then the full force of the government will be behind me"!!

    ReplyDelete
  4. " dguller said...

    Brian:

    If I ignore the problems I have with your argument and grant its soundness, dguller, you still have not touched the issue of same-sex marriage. Even if we grant your pseudo natural law argument, it would still be an injustice for the State to recognize same-sex "marriage

    Not necessarily.

    The purpose of the family can be understood to raise children into flourishing human beings, ..."


    The purpose of the family could be understood to provide a clientele for theme parks, if you wanted to propose such a purpose.

    The original role of the state in marriage lies in arbitration of the marital contract as a unique kind of legal contract, with provisions for the assignment of divisions and liabilities and responsibilities for human offspring.

    Division of real or other property between two partners can be legally arranged in any number of ways without imputing to such an agreement the dignity and social standing of heterosexual marriage.

    In fact it's done every day. It's usually called "business".

    But of course, despite all the talk of benefits, which no doubt do make up part of the homosexuals' interest, that special dignity and social standing is the underlying why behind homosexuals' drive to have their living arrangements included under the category of "marriage".

    The emotional crap that fills out the corners of so many arguments in this area, is just that: crap. "We want our feelings recognized, and the state to compel you to contribute to, and socially validate that recognition."

    But the fact is that I don't recognize my neighbor's marriage as significant because I give a damn about his or her feelings for each other; but because they [I'll omit the conditioning class membership reasoning here] have produced minor children that someone is going to have to take care of if they split. With a biological mother and father it's pretty easy to sort out who is and who is not proximately and materially responsible.

    ReplyDelete
  5. goddinpotty said...

    " ... it's nice that natural law does not necessarily imply a lack of tolerance toward gays. But (a) I personally don't care, having not the slightest interest in natural law as a concept, and ..."


    Good. You will therefore presumably not be troubling anyone with claims of social tolerance or entitlements, couched in language based on the subsumptive category of natural justice.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Eduardo:

    Now, that we disagree here, but really.... We could come to that day where marrying to oneself is something.... Normal.

    I sure hope not!

    ReplyDelete
  7. DNW:

    The original role of the state in marriage lies in arbitration of the marital contract as a unique kind of legal contract, with provisions for the assignment of divisions and liabilities and responsibilities for human offspring.

    I don’t think the original role is necessarily relevant. The original meaning of “atom” was an indivisible substance, and yet the atom has been split. We continue to talk about atoms, even though the original meaning had to be revised, and I think that we have made a great deal of progress despite this revision in meaning.

    But the fact is that I don't recognize my neighbor's marriage as significant because I give a damn about his or her feelings for each other; but because they [I'll omit the conditioning class membership reasoning here] have produced minor children that someone is going to have to take care of if they split. With a biological mother and father it's pretty easy to sort out who is and who is not proximately and materially responsible.

    So, marriage is ultimately about assigning responsibility to who will be a caregiver for children? And that can’t be the case during homosexual adoptions, because …? After all, an adoption is a legal agreement to care for children, which confers upon the signers the status of parents. Sexual preference doesn’t seem to enter into the equation at all.

    ReplyDelete
  8. >I don’t understand the example. Sandra Fluke has the right to healthcare, and contraception is a part of women’s health, which means that she has a right to access to it.

    She can access what she wants what she & other Fascist liberals want to do is force me to buy it for her.

    If she wants to read porn. She can do what she wants with the money I pay her & buy and read whatever smut she likes. But she can't force me to purchase a subscription to playgirl for her.

    ReplyDelete
  9. @ dguller

    Me too dude, but... I mean we live in different times. Most social institutions have descent in some form of vague idea with no substance.

    ReplyDelete
  10. >How is that better? The bottom line is that they are not allowed permission to behave in a particular way.

    You are pettifogging the issue.

    Are we talking about gay "marriage" or the moral prohibition against having gay sex? Because legally you may have sex with any adult who grants you consent and that is between you, them and God.

    >the bottom line is that they are being prohibited from performing a certain activity, which they are strongly inclined to do, due to their appetitive constitution, which they never chose and cannot control.

    Well I deny your claim a person can't control their appetitive behavior. If what you say is true then no Pedophile can ever be treated clinically & all of them must be imprisoned for life as soon as they are discovered.

    Pedophiles are not gays. Gays are 1000 times safer.

    Anyway I don't advocate civil Laws that prohibit adults having consensual sex or associations.

    So pick an issue & stick too it.

    BTW dguller just so we are clear along with Feser you have my mad respects even if I disagree with you.

    ReplyDelete
  11. >Ben implies that the Catholic position is, in fact, that there are some rights that homosexuals are prohibited from having simply because they are homosexual, which I would presume includes the right to marry someone they love.

    No it's not that they can marry but may not marry. Rather it's given the nature of marriage they cannot marry someone of the same gender anymore then someone can marry themselves.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/25/nadine-schweigert-woman-marries-herself_n_1546024.html

    >So, the Catholic church would not approve of a single homosexual person adopting a child if they remained celibate?

    I don't know? There is no reason contrary to the natural or moral law but wither it is prudent to do so is another matter.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Ben:

    Are we talking about gay "marriage" or the moral prohibition against having gay sex? Because legally you may have sex with any adult who grants you consent and that is between you, them and God.

    The former stems from the latter, and so they are necessarily connection. Gay marriage is prohibited because gay sexual activity is a perversion of the natural purposes of our sexual nature, which is to have heterosexual intercourse within a marital setting in order to procreate.

    Well I deny your claim a person can't control their appetitive behavior. If what you say is true then no Pedophile can ever be treated clinically & all of them must be imprisoned for life as soon as they are discovered.

    I agree that a person can control their appetitive behavior, but not necessarily forever, and certainly not if their appetites are sufficiently powerful to overwhelm their will. You can say the same thing for drug addiction in that the intense cravings that go along with it can be resisted for a time, but relapse is the norm, not the exception. With regards to homosexuality, especially if it is consensual between adults who are responsible for their actions, then resisting this appetite ends up causing intense inner distress and suffering, which could compromise their well-being. A friend of mine is transgendered, and you cannot imagine the suffering that he endures on a daily basis in order to hide his true self from others, because of the likely backlash. And so he expresses his transgendered self in private, which is some measure of relief, but only a small amount.

    And as for pedophiles, their appetites, if not curbed, should be incarcerated for life to protect innocent children. Certainly, medications and therapy can make some inroads, but they are usually ineffective. Since their violations of children occur without proper consent due to the age of the child, they cannot be in the same category as consensual homosexual intercourse.

    Pedophiles are not gays. Gays are 1000 times safer.

    Agreed, although some pedophiles are homosexual.

    Anyway I don't advocate civil Laws that prohibit adults having consensual sex or associations.

    That’s great, except that you do advocate laws that prohibit the association of marriage amongst consensual adults.

    BTW dguller just so we are clear along with Feser you have my mad respects even if I disagree with you.

    That’s cool.

    ReplyDelete
  13. wasnt a third of the pedophiles .... homossexuals ???

    I pretty sure i heard that.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Ben:

    No it's not that they can marry but may not marry. Rather it's given the nature of marriage they cannot marry someone of the same gender anymore then someone can marry themselves.

    But we define the “nature of marriage”. Just because it has been defined in a particular way for centuries does not mean that it cannot be revised for our betterment, especially given our cultural evolution. I mentioned the example of “atom” above. The definition of “atom” was of an indivisible tiny substance that combined with other indivisible tiny substances to form the material objects around. This definition was standard for centuries, and yet after the atom was discovered to be divisible into smaller components, we still used the word “atom” even though the meaning had changed. And we were for the better as a result of accepting that change, because it opened up new vistas of knowledge and understanding. It would be like saying, “Well, you can’t call a hydrogen atom, an atom, because it is composed of three quarks, and it is the quarks that are the real atoms.” I mean, you could say that, but does that really add to our knowledge or betterment?

    With regards to marriage, perhaps what we thought was an essential component has to be revised in light of the complexities of human social interactions, including single parenthood, homosexuality, infertility, IVF with someone else’s egg or sperm, contraception, divorce, adoption, surrogate mothers, and so on. Heterosexual marital relations for the purpose of procreation and the raising of children may even be the ideal relationship for a human being, but the reality is that for many people, this ideal is simply impossible, and yet they have to strive to find fulfillment and well-being within the circumstances in which they find themselves. Perhaps procreation simply isn’t a priority for them, but they want to sanctity of being in a marriage? Perhaps they are homosexual and want the same rights as a married couple? Perhaps they are infertile and unable to have their own children, but are willing to use someone else’s eggs or sperm via IVF, or even hire a surrogate mother? All of these bring a complexity to the debate that a simple formula simply cannot accommodate.

    I don't know? There is no reason contrary to the natural or moral law but wither it is prudent to do so is another matter.

    But it would be considered a perversion of that individual’s human nature, not only by being a homosexual, but also by raising a child outside of a heterosexual marital context. That would violate the natural law of being a human being, and thus should not be accepted by those who oppose anything that interferes with maximal actualization of our human nature.

    ReplyDelete
  15. dguller

    You said it yourself once on Stephen Law's blog to that lunatic Gnu David Span(which was awesome on your part BTW).

    Changing the name of something doesn't change what it is...

    Calling something "actual" evil or claiming you can make 2+2=5 by redefining the symbol "5" to mean this many objects "****" doesn't change it's nature.

    The same with marriage. Two dudes, two chicks, the weird woman who whats a union with herself call it something else.

    It's not a marriage.

    ReplyDelete
  16. >But it would be considered a perversion of that individual’s human nature,

    I promise I will get back to you later on this.

    I have much to tell you.

    ReplyDelete
  17. dguller said...

    DNW:

    'The original role of the state in marriage lies in arbitration of the marital contract as a unique kind of legal contract, with provisions for the assignment of divisions and liabilities and responsibilities for human offspring.'

    I don’t think the original role is necessarily relevant."

    Well, if we are discussing human motivations for in the first place fashioning laws which inject the coercive apparatus of the state into particular human relationships, and which distributively lays claims and obligations across the social board as a result, then the particular rationale seems highly relevant.

    If we figure we can justly mandate that people do or accept whatever we can manage to coerce them into doing or accepting, then no definitions matter.

    I suppose you could make it a law that everyone jump 6 feet straight up twice every day, and let definitions and natural capacity take care of themselves.


    " The original meaning of “atom” was an indivisible substance, and yet the atom has been split. We continue to talk about atoms, even though the original meaning had to be revised, and I think that we have made a great deal of progress despite this revision in meaning."



    What American laws demanding that you act or refrain from acting in a certain way, do you know of which were predicated on Democritus' particular conception of the atom? In other words, what's the relevance of your argument for the legal issue?

    In this case, by changing the definition of marriage, you change the predicate for all that follows or is said to follow from it. Thus, if you change that, you are changing the rationale for - in the case of the law - justifying coercion, distributively assigning responsibility, or distributing rights and privileges.

    Again, we are dealing with what are conceived of as vital "social interests" so compelling as to require universal recognition, and a burden of affirmation placed on the whole political community, because of some supposed distributively intrinsic associative interest.

    To pretend that the public's affirmation of the significance of male-male sexual relationships as being equivalent in social importance to heterosexual unions, is somehow necessary or even distributively useful, is just nonsensical.

    The latter is intrinsically worthy of the law's recognition, the other isn't.

    ReplyDelete
  18. @

    --"re purposed by natural selection"

    So now natural selection has purpose?

    O-K!

    ReplyDelete
  19. .... this is Natural Selection the Feral Spirit folks, calm the heck down.

    The other natural selection which is just a statistical change, is not at play yet !!!! sort of ....

    ReplyDelete
  20. dguller says

    [DNW]'But the fact is that I don't recognize my neighbor's marriage as significant because I give a damn about his or her feelings for each other; but because they [I'll omit the conditioning class membership reasoning here] have produced minor children that someone is going to have to take care of if they split. With a biological mother and father it's pretty easy to sort out who is and who is not proximately and materially responsible.'

    So, marriage is ultimately about assigning responsibility to who will be a caregiver for children? And that can’t be the case during homosexual adoptions, because …? After all, an adoption is a legal agreement to care for children, which confers upon the signers the status of parents. Sexual preference doesn’t seem to enter into the equation at all.

    August 9, 2012 9:52 AM"

    "Sexual preference doesn’t seem to enter into the equation at all."

    In taking your implied critical standard seriously, neither necessarily would "marriage".

    However you have apparently misread me.

    My argument, was not that marriage is for the raising of children, but rather that the responsibility for the unique natural product, or fallout from, such unions considered as a class, raises the contract involved in these unions to the position of meriting special legal and social recognition.


    Nice try though Dimitri. LOL

    ReplyDelete
  21. Ben:

    The same with marriage. Two dudes, two chicks, the weird woman who whats a union with herself call it something else.

    It's not a marriage.


    The thing is that “marriage” is not like “hydrogen”. Its nature depends upon what we define its nature to be, unlike hydrogen, whose nature is what it is independent of our needs or wishes may be. So, we have a flexibility with marriage that we do not have with hydrogen. Certainly, a redefinition of “marriage” towards a more inclusive concept would not be traditional marriage, but there is no good reason to think of traditional marriage as the final word on the matter of the only acceptable way to have intimate relationships between adults.

    I promise I will get back to you later on this.

    I can’t wait. Just try not to swear.

    ReplyDelete
  22. So now natural selection has purpose?

    Natural selection has no purpose, but it generates purpose. Thus, we have a world with no overarching global purpose, but a plenitude of creatures each with their own set of local purposes.

    This is pretty basic stuff.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Oh no here we go to that again. I can see the discussion unfolding XD!

    ReplyDelete
  24. DNW:

    Well, if we are discussing human motivations for in the first place fashioning laws which inject the coercive apparatus of the state into particular human relationships, and which distributively lays claims and obligations across the social board as a result, then the particular rationale seems highly relevant.

    My point was that what was considered valid in the past is no guarantee that it continues to be valid today. Bartering was the original means of exchanging goods, but it changed with the invention of money that symbolized an agreed-upon value to exchange for goods and services. The same thing with marriage. It was invented for a particular purpose, but that does not mean that it cannot be superseded and revised, if that is required, given our current complex social realities.

    If we figure we can justly mandate that people do or accept whatever we can manage to coerce them into doing or accepting, then no definitions matter.

    I disagree. The definition must have some connection with the underlying natures of what the definition is supposed to capture. With regards to what counts as a marriage, if the goal is some kind of productive and beneficial social bond or arrangement, then there may be different ways of reaching such an arrangement, given the individual differences and capacities of the particular people involved, and such changes should be considered, even if they are novel. Furthermore, they must make reference to human nature as a grounding point to justify their validity.

    I suppose you could make it a law that everyone jump 6 feet straight up twice every day, and let definitions and natural capacity take care of themselves.

    You could do so, but that is impossible, given human biology and physics. So, why make an impossible law that serves no purpose, other than to mock an adversary’s philosophical position? That would be a colossal waste of a legislator’s time.

    What American laws demanding that you act or refrain from acting in a certain way, do you know of which were predicated on Democritus' particular conception of the atom? In other words, what's the relevance of your argument for the legal issue?

    An old definition was changed to better reflect current understanding despite the continued use of the old term, and that human beings are the better for it. That was the point.

    In this case, by changing the definition of marriage, you change the predicate for all that follows or is said to follow from it. Thus, if you change that, you are changing the rationale for - in the case of the law - justifying coercion, distributively assigning responsibility, or distributing rights and privileges.

    A few things have to change, yes, but the overall structure can remain in place. You are still justifying coercion, distributively assigning responsibility, and so on, but only in a different way.

    ReplyDelete
  25. DNW:

    Again, we are dealing with what are conceived of as vital "social interests" so compelling as to require universal recognition, and a burden of affirmation placed on the whole political community, because of some supposed distributively intrinsic associative interest.

    I agree. I think that human beings all share the same set of objective values, and that our individual flourishing and well-being consists in maximally actualizing as many of these values as possible at an individual level, and that our collective flourishing and well-being consists in maximally actualizing as many of these values as possible at a collective level. Which values should be prioritized in a given situation will depend upon that situation, and that there is no value that is always and necessarily applicable in all situations. Sometimes it is better to lie, and sometimes it is better to tell the truth. Sometimes it is better to be patient, and sometimes it is better to be impatient. Furthermore, it is almost always extremely difficult, if not impossible, to know which value to prioritize in a given situation, because the justification can only come from a positive outcome in the future, which is simply unavailable in the present. So, we are effectively flying partially blind in ethical decisions.

    If there is anything in the above account that you find objectionable, then please let me know.

    To pretend that the public's affirmation of the significance of male-male sexual relationships as being equivalent in social importance to heterosexual unions, is somehow necessary or even distributively useful, is just nonsensical.

    How is it nonsensical? How is it not “distributively useful”? And it is not just about rhetorically convincing the public to approve of homosexual marriages, but rather about coming to see that our sexuality is just a part of who we are, and that our sexual desires are certainly not the highest part of who we are, and that, therefore, they can be ignored in many circumstances when higher principles and standards of goodness that apply to the totality of a human being’s existence come into play. So, homosexuality has no bearing, at least empirically, about whether a child would flourish in a particular environment. More important is whether the environment is stable, loving, honest, concerned about the child’s welfare, willing to sacrifice for their well-being, motivated to encourage their education, and so on. All of these can occur in both homosexual and heterosexual marriages.

    In taking your implied critical standard seriously, neither necessarily would "marriage".

    That’s right. There are probably many ways of organizing human associations that could also lead to the assignment of responsibility for the raising of children.

    ReplyDelete
  26. DNW:

    My argument, was not that marriage is for the raising of children, but rather that the responsibility for the unique natural product, or fallout from, such unions considered as a class, raises the contract involved in these unions to the position of meriting special legal and social recognition.

    But that “special legal and social recognition” is something that we must collective agree upon. It is not metaphysically necessary, but rather pragmatically useful for the achievement of certain ends that we agree are fundamentally important. And there may be multiple ways, other than the traditional way, that could also achieve those ends.

    For example, medicine was once characterized as correcting the imbalance of humors, and medical interventions were all designed around that goal, and primarily involved bloodletting and purging. The goal was the healing of the patient, but it actually ended up being more harmful than helpful. As medical knowledge advanced, the humoral imbalance theory was rejected, and more effective interventions were discovered, and which actually worked. It is still considered to be “medicine”, even though the core theory had been abandoned, because of the goals that medicine is associated with, i.e. healing of the mind and body through natural interventions. So, even though healing was considered something that warranted “special legal and social recognition”, it still underwent a revision with the recognition that there were other ways of practicing medicine to achieve the same goal, sometimes with an even better outcome.

    ReplyDelete
  27. goddinpotty said:

    " Every functional part of an organism, more or less, started out as something else and was re purposed by natural selection. So far from being sinful, "misusing" part of your body is doing the work of creation. "


    goddinpotty then said...

    'So now natural selection has purpose?'

    Natural selection has no purpose, but it generates purpose. Thus, we have a world with no overarching global purpose, but a plenitude of creatures each with their own set of local purposes.

    This is pretty basic stuff.

    August 9, 2012 11:42 AM"


    Basic stuff includes keeping track of, and at least owning up to, what you have literally, if unintentionally, said.

    Thus, even if we transform:

    "Every functional part of an organism, more or less, started out as something else and was re purposed by natural selection."

    Into:

    "Every functional part of an organism, more or less, started out as something else and was re purposed *through* natural selection."

    You would still be either implying purpose to natural selection at a remove, or if using "purposed" as an exact synonym for "function", implying an objective function to the so-called "part".


    And too, this, "So far from being sinful, "misusing" part of your body is doing the work of creation." , certainly implies a Lamarckian view of evolutionary "creation. Unless that is, you imagine that allowing yourself to die of aids or taking AZT is somehow doing the work of creation.

    Yet if you die without successfully surviving issue, you have created no new purpose. And if you survive by means of drugs, how have you objectively re-purposed anything?

    Perhaps the best bet for homosexuals would be for them to form artificially reproducing broods and re-engineer their bodies with certain additional protuberances and receptacles the use of which would provide fewer challenges to hygiene and ultimately to survival. Though what purpose all that would serve other than brooding a pointless purpose, I couldn't say.

    ReplyDelete
  28. GIP:

    Natural selection has no purpose, but it generates purpose. Thus, we have a world with no overarching global purpose, but a plenitude of creatures each with their own set of local purposes.

    I think you have it backwards. Because of individual organisms striving to actualize the potentialities in their natures, which includes, primarily, the need to continue to exist, you have evolution by natural selection, once you include heritable traits that vary in terms of fitness relative to a particular environment and a competition for scare resources. In other words, natural selection is a byproduct of the activity of teleological organisms plus heritable traits with variable fitness and competition for resources.

    It is like the Invisible Hand of the Market. It is nothing in itself, and has no actual causal power. It is just a shorthand for describing what happens to prices when you have a collection of individual human beings, each pursuing selfish ends in terms of maximizing their profitability in a market. So, the Invisible Hand of the Market is a byproduct of the teleological activity of human beings pursuing selfish ends in a market economy. Similarly, natural selection is nothing in itself, and is just shorthand for what happens when teleological organisms compete for scare resources and have heritable traits that vary in fitness relative to their particular environments.

    So, natural selection is a derivative of teleology, not the other way around.

    ReplyDelete
  29. We should ignore GIP since he refuses to do any of the relevant reading, uses mindless ridicule in place of rational argument and tries to hijack the thread just to waste time.

    He is just too ignorant to make any sort of worthwhile argument and clearly he has no intention of changing.

    We should engage dguller because he has done a lot of the relevant reading, has bothered to familiarize himself with the material and learned the philosophy. Even if we disagree with how he uses it or his different conclusions he at least knows what he is talking about.

    Now I have work to do.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Anonymous dguller said...

    DNW:

    'My argument, was not that marriage is for the raising of children, but rather that the responsibility for the unique natural product, or fallout from, such unions considered as a class, raises the contract involved in these unions to the position of meriting special legal and social recognition.'

    But that “special legal and social recognition” is something that we must collective agree upon."

    The formality of recognition only, not the phenomenon itself which is critical whether you deign to collectively take note or not.


    In other words, you can agree on granting it's sacral [in a secular sense] character or not; collectively or not; but that has no bearing on the the historical fact situation and whether it is objectively the kind of relationship which has unique effects.



    " It is not metaphysically necessary, but rather pragmatically useful for the achievement of certain ends that we agree are fundamentally important. "


    No one "has to agree" that children are fundamentally important for a heterosexual union to naturally produce both them and their humanly critical effects.


    The fact is that taken as a class, these heterosexual unions, often formalized between the parties as contracts, have unique characteristics that vitally, and distributively, effect everyone within the associative circle.

    Joe Frick and Jack Frack want to diddle each other and later argue over who gets the Barry Manilow records? It's nothing to me or to my kids.

    Feral children loosed upon my town, are a rather more pressing, and justly pressing, concern.



    "And there may be multiple ways, other than the traditional way, that could also achieve those ends.

    For example, medicine was once characterized as correcting the imbalance of humors, and medical interventions were all designed around that goal, and primarily involved bloodletting and purging. The goal was the healing of the patient, but it actually ended up being more harmful than helpful. As medical knowledge advanced, the humoral imbalance theory was rejected, and more effective interventions were discovered, and which actually worked. It is still considered to be “medicine”, even though the core theory had been abandoned, because of the goals that medicine is associated with, i.e. healing of the mind and body through natural interventions. So, even though healing was considered something that warranted “special legal and social recognition”, it still underwent a revision with the recognition that there were other ways of practicing medicine to achieve the same goal, sometimes with an even better outcome.

    August 9, 2012 12:12 PM"


    No insult intended here,[seriously] but you are losing me here, as you yourself seem to lose track of the ground and go floating off on a cloud of stipulations.

    We could say this, or we could say that. "We" could do this or we could do that, if we say this or if we say that, and then collectively agree on it as real and significant ...

    Well ... sure, sort of. We could, if we were stupid enough agree to make artistic fulfillment through public recognition the most important thing in the world; and then cull out or coerce all those who weren't interested in spending their time in an audience applauding so and so's staging of a live sodomy demonstration accompanied his feeling rendition of Tip Toe Through the Tulips performed on accordion.

    The question is, why would a sane person waste his time and life-energies validating such pointless absurdity; and what legal system pretending to have any rooting in nature or natural law, would validate it?

    ReplyDelete
  31. The term "Anonymous dguller", is apparently the result of some kind of highlighting-for-copy bleed over.

    It was not intentional, nor is it a form of snark.

    Now, I'm going to have to get back to work, or I'll be working for someone else ...

    ReplyDelete
  32. "Now I have work to do."


    You too?

    ReplyDelete
  33. It is like the Invisible Hand of the Market. It is nothing in itself, and has no actual causal power. It is just a shorthand for describing what happens to prices when you have a collection of individual human beings, each pursuing selfish ends in terms of maximizing their profitability in a market. So, the Invisible Hand of the Market is a byproduct of the teleological activity of human beings pursuing selfish ends in a market economy. Similarly, natural selection is nothing in itself, and is just shorthand for what happens when teleological organisms compete for scare resources and have heritable traits that vary in fitness relative to their particular environments.

    So, natural selection is a derivative of teleology, not the other way around.


    GIP believes that teleology can be cashed out in terms of natural selection, which can in turn be cashed out in terms of non-teleology. It amounts to the claim that "natural selection both does and does not possess teleology". Pay him no mind--he drank the Kool-Aid long ago. (Dennett holds a similar position, I should add.)

    Your position is the sane one, which is held by most of the educated and non-brainwashed people on this subject.

    ReplyDelete
  34. DNW:

    The formality of recognition only, not the phenomenon itself which is critical whether you deign to collectively take note or not.

    The phenomenon only gets its reality from the recognition and collective agreement. However, there are better and worse agreements when it comes to the attaining of particular goals and ends, and there may be different collective agreements that equally attain the same goals and ends, but that can only be discovered by acting them out in the real world and seeing how they play out. Depending upon the results, the agreements may have to be revised.

    In other words, you can agree on granting it's sacral [in a secular sense] character or not; collectively or not; but that has no bearing on the the historical fact situation and whether it is objectively the kind of relationship which has unique effects.

    But then how does it differ from the QWERTY keyboard phenomenon? All keyboards are of the QWERTY format, and everyone who trains on a keyboard becomes comfortable on that format. It is certainly very effective at allowing people to type texts, and has been around for decades. But even if it were around for centuries, it does not follow that QWERTY is part of the nature of a keyboard. It is just what was created early on in the keyboard era, and has stuck due to familiarity. There may be other keyboard arrangements that we even more effective out there, and this is not ruled out by metaphysical necessity. I would say that marriage is similar to that.

    No one "has to agree" that children are fundamentally important for a heterosexual union to naturally produce both them and their humanly critical effects.

    I disagree. Perhaps not everyone must agree with this proposition, but a significant proportion of the human population must in order to perpetuate the human species. Children are primarily created through heterosexual intercourse, although with technological developments, they can also be created through IVF, and perhaps even more artificial means in the future. Regardless, children must be born, whether naturally or artificially, for the sake of the human species, and thus this would count as a fundamental human good, but certainly not necessarily the fundamental human good.

    Feral children loosed upon my town, are a rather more pressing, and justly pressing, concern.

    And there were no feral children prior to homosexual marriage?

    No insult intended here,[seriously] but you are losing me here, as you yourself seem to lose track of the ground and go floating off on a cloud of stipulations.

    Sorry, I’ll try to be more focused.

    We could say this, or we could say that. "We" could do this or we could do that, if we say this or if we say that, and then collectively agree on it as real and significant ...

    Right. But whether our agreement actually is the best means of attaining predetermined ends is something that only playing it out in reality will determine, and if there are other agreements that better attain those same ends, but have other advantages, such as not reducing consensual adults to pariahs in the human community, then all the better.

    ReplyDelete
  35. DNW:

    Well ... sure, sort of. We could, if we were stupid enough agree to make artistic fulfillment through public recognition the most important thing in the world; and then cull out or coerce all those who weren't interested in spending their time in an audience applauding so and so's staging of a live sodomy demonstration accompanied his feeling rendition of Tip Toe Through the Tulips performed on accordion.

    Artistic fulfillment is certainly one human good and value, and for those with a passion and talent for it, it would be a worthy goal in priority to many others that other humans would feel are more important. In fact, we all are better off for having artists and the way that they convey significant messages through the medium of art to us in a vivid and visceral fashion, and thus it is a good idea for all of us to chip in collectively to keep the arts alive. Now, a live sodomy demonstration would be quite avant guard, and I personally wouldn’t want to see it, and actually don’t know anyone who would want to see it, but I suppose it could be justified as a means of pushing the boundaries of what is thought permissible. However, I really don’t think that most people would be interested in such art, and that there might be better ways to demonstrate our various limits and boundaries.

    The question is, why would a sane person waste his time and life-energies validating such pointless absurdity; and what legal system pretending to have any rooting in nature or natural law, would validate it?

    Probably none.

    ReplyDelete
  36. dguller,

    Just a couple of comments, as I have only a short time to revisit this today.

    dguller said...

    " DNW:

    'The formality of recognition only, not the phenomenon itself which is critical whether you deign to collectively take note or not.'

    The phenomenon only gets its reality from the recognition and collective agreement ..."

    Now I don't quite know what to make of that remark.

    First I don't know what sense it would make to say that something only springs into being upon being recognized. If that is what you meant to say.

    Just how this would work if one took it literally, is hard to imagine.

    I suppose what you actually meant to say is that while phenomena may be felt or have impacts on our lives, some kind of categorization must take place for it to be processed as a discrete or reliably and repeatably recognized something.

    Now why, even granting such a notion, you would go on to stipulate that the recognition must be "collective" is equally mysterious.

    I don't need the entire "collective" to inform me of what I am seeing when I am looking at a laser interferometer.

    In the case of the centrality of children to human society, such centrality no more needs to be recognized by "the collective" that the collective needs to understand or "collectively validate" the exact mechanics of sexual reproduction in order for offspring to be produced; even though very ignorant or stupid people are in fact able to discern some causality there.

    I'll take another look at what you have written tomorrow, and see if what appears to me to be your combining of a pretty strident nominalism with a "social construction of reality" theory with some kind of cursory [and I would think contradictory] nod toward realism holds up.

    I'm having trouble processing some of what you have written - or taking it as seriously meant - given other fairly reasonable things you have also written.

    Interpreting - or better, evaluating - what you mean by this "collective" business has me stumped for the moment.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Just wanted to dip in (I'm not plunging into this mess); but something Dguller said:

    Its nature depends upon what we define its nature to be, unlike hydrogen, whose nature is what it is independent of our needs or wishes may be.

    I mean, a realist of the A-T bent should honestly just read that sentence and stop, realize that he can go no further arguing the finer points deriving from such a position, and move on. Statements of this form are/must be true "agree to disagree" propositions between Idealists and Realists.

    ReplyDelete
  38. "But then how does it differ from the QWERTY keyboard phenomenon? All keyboards are of the QWERTY format, and everyone who trains on a keyboard becomes comfortable on that format."


    Just as a minor quibble, no they are not ... what impact that has on you argument I'll leave for later.



    "[DNW] 'No one "has to agree" that children are fundamentally important for a heterosexual union to naturally produce both them and their humanly critical effects.'

    [dguller] I disagree. Perhaps not everyone must agree with this proposition, but a significant proportion of the human population must in order to perpetuate the human species."


    A couple of unreflective millions out of the planetary billions are all that would be required. If that.

    So, again, I think you are mistaking the sense of what I have said. [Which could be because I have not made myself plain, or because you are laboring (quite competently) with English as a second language, or maybe both].

    My statement is merely that it is the nature of heterosexual unions to produce offspring. This is a fact regardless of the intellectual stance taken on the value of offspring question by this or that heterosexual.

    Obviously numerous heterosexuals who have the technical means and/or the knowledge to interfere with this process, or the will to dispose of the product, do so for various reasons. One of which may even be a deep nihilism.

    But they have been doing so for a long while. Cicero, if I recall correctly, even felt it necessary to tell his Roman readers that raising children was a duty.

    You can hate children, you can contracept, abort, and even throw newborns down drain pipes leading to sewers.

    But none of that refutes the fundamental biological fact that heterosexual unions naturally produce offspring; offspring that represent the very possibility of a human race continuing in existence; and that this critical fact is what makes these unions especially - uniquely - worthy of legal and universal regard.


    Now if you or some other persons wish to contemplate the industrial production of children so as to have a resource upon which a preexisting class of hedonists may call for support and service, then you are talking something different altogether.

    ReplyDelete
  39. @dguller

    natural selection is a byproduct of the activity of teleological organisms plus heritable traits with variable fitness and competition for resources.

    Um, no. Natural selection is a byproduct of differential reproduction with mutation, and works whether the things reproducing are "teleological" or not (whatever that means. Is a escheria coli bacterium teleological? What about an autocatalyzing network of RNA molecules? Is "teleological" just a fancy way of saying "alive" (which is also hard to define at the boundaries)?

    It is like the Invisible Hand of the Market. It is nothing in itself, and has no actual causal power. It is just a shorthand for describing what happens to prices when you have a collection of individual human beings, each pursuing selfish ends in terms of maximizing their profitability in a market.

    I am quite impressed with how confused this is. Really. It is confused in interesting ways.

    Natural selection and the market are similar in certain ways -- they are both distributed systems with no central control, that act over time to optimize certain things (suriviability, wealth). They are both, as you say, systems without direct causal powers of their own. They both are capable of generating innovations. And they both suggest teleology at one or more levels.

    That doesn't mean they are similar in every way. They are simply not the same thing. In particular, natural selection does not start with self-interest, but produces it -- as I originally said -- while markets are ways to collaboratively organize existing self-interests. Very different kettles of maximizers.

    ReplyDelete
  40. dguller,

    We are talking about homosexuals. Would the Catholic church approve of a single homosexual adopting a child, if they remained celibate?

    I doubt any single-parent household is regarded as the absolute ideal for a child, nor should it be - but in sheer moral principle? They could, according to my understanding of Catholic teaching. Again, a single parent adopting a child is not regarded as immoral. Oh, the parent has an inclination towards some kind of sin? Find a parent who doesn't.

    Also, would the Catholic church approve of two homosexual friends who are not being intimate with one another adopting a child together as long as they are both celibate?

    My answer is the same as above. I can imagine some individual Catholic(s) reacting poorly to this - I think they'd be mistaken, and there's certainly no teaching that says this is immoral. Again, I imagine the ideal would be a monogamous heterosexual couple of good moral character and capability, but considering less than ideal adoptions happen as a matter of course (for instance, adoptions by non-Catholics, from Catholic adoption agencies), there's no moral or dogmatic barrier to this.

    If they had a single homosexual encounter with someone, then would the Catholic church rescind the adoption?

    I'm pretty sure the Catholic church can't 'rescind the adoption', for one thing. For another? You're asking me if the Church is in the habit of declaring people to be unfit parents in the instance of a sin. Put this in perspective: do you think the Church keeps tabs on who walks into a confessional, because if someone does - hey, check that guy out, see if he has any adopted kids, we don't let people who SIN raise children?

    Now, approving of the sin, justifying it, making it into a full-blown lifestyle? Well, now we've got a problem to consider.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Done? I mean, what about marriages between individuals who never want to have children? Should they not be called “married”, either? After all, they are intentionally thwarting their natures.

    Yep, I'm game. If a fertile couple gets married, intending never to have children, let's not call their relationship a 'marriage'. We'll find another name. And we'll find another name for a gay couple being together.

    Civil unions. Marriage is off-limits. After all, we can call it whatever we want, as you said.

    Thanks for your concession on this one.

    Where would you say is a good example of a country that prioritizes the traditional attitude towards sexuality with virtually no modernity whatsoever, and which is flourishing overall compared to countries that have a primarily modern attitude over the traditional attitude?

    Why would I need the example of a country, as opposed to a culture? I am very, very well aware that A) the modern attitude towards sexuality is pretty damn prevalent throughout most of the developed or even developing world, and B) that one can have a traditional attitude towards sexuality while still having problems, even serious ones.

    Are you honestly asking me to find a nation without cultural and moral problems? Are you telling me that pointing out the failings of a particular nation or culture is invalid unless I produce a perfect, living example?

    Also, if contraception, for example, is a part of the modern attitude, then what about the work of people like Amartya Sen, who argues that empowering women through things such as education and contraception, actually leads to improved human flourishing, because the intellectual and creative potential of women can be utilized to better a society, other than by keeping them at home to raise a plentitude of children?

    Man, you just love the strawmen. A traditional attitude towards sexuality does not mean "stay at home bitches and pump out young'ns!" Is your every mental picture of a non-liberal this shitty?

    Yes, I think contraception and the attitude that goes with it hand in hand is morally damaging, among other things. No, I am not against educating women, women who decide not to have families, women who dedicate themselves to a career, etc. Again, the very existence of nuns as even a single example should suffice to make you back off this in advance. But no, apparently you're going to make me point this crap out.

    Then what is the point of emphasizing traditional marriage when you seem to agree that there are a number of other possible social arrangements of individuals in which a child can flourish?

    Because we're not attempting to solve an efficiency problem in SimCity, which is the way you're treating this issue. We're dealing with questions of a good upbringing, moral dimensions, societal direction, understanding and more.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Either traditional marriage is better than the alternatives, in which case it should be always prioritized over others, or it is equal to the alternatives, in which case it has no priority or importance over them, or it is inferior to the alternatives, in which case it should not be considered at all.

    Again, this isn't SimCity. A traditional marriage is a positive factor, but not the only factor in play - again, just because you're a man and you're married to a woman does not mean "Well crap they get a magical bonus which means they provide the absolute best environment for a child from all legitimate perspectives!"

    Welcome to reality, dguller! It doesn't fit into the neat little arrangement you just tried to set up. We have an abundance of children in need of homes, a variety of possibilities to examine for raising them, and while some factors are better than others, the perfectly ideal family doesn't exist. A single man of good moral character and means may be the best option for a child available. He may be the better option than an orphanage, or a very flawed married man and wife. Hell, it may be better to keep a child in an orphanage than allow said child to be adopted by a particular married couple. Say, Woody Allen and Mia Farrow.

    So no, your little "either-or" construct shatters on the spot. Again, welcome to reality. It's a complex place.

    am just saying what follows from natural law in the Aristotelian-Thomist framework. Say you have X and Y, which are both examples of A. If X actualizes it’s A nature more than Y, then X is a better A than Y. That is just based upon Thomist metaphysics.

    No, dguller.

    Let's throw out an example:

    Here's Rick. Rick has same-sex attraction - let's imagine for a moment Rick has never been sexually attracted to a woman in his life. But Rick is celibate. He's an upstanding member of his community, a sincere Catholic, and while he has his failings, they're the sort of failings you'd expect of most humans.

    Here's Charles. Charles is completely heterosexual. We know this, because he's knocked up 10 different women in his life, and probably will manage some more before he's done. He's been in and out of prison for various crimes - assault, theft, etc - which doesn't bother him too much, what with his being an atheist and a nihilist.

    So, who's 'better'? I'm going to suggest that according to Thomist metaphysics, your reply - "Well Charles is a better man on Thomism. He's not attracted to men!" - is incorrect. Obviously incorrect.

    So no, it doesn't "follow" that being homosexual makes you "inferior" to heterosexuals on Thomism.

    Then if thwarting the natural tendency to procreation for the sake of a higher good is permissible for the clergy, then why not extend the same idea to homosexual relationships?

    Because even on a Thomist understanding, there is a radical difference between refusing to engage in a sexual act, and engaging in a corrupted sexual act. Again, if you think that under a Thomist understanding, all people are mandated to engage in heterosexual sex and produce children, you're operating with a pretty warped understanding of natural law and thomism.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Like I said, take it up with the A-T framework.

    Like I said - fuck you. And you should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting I or anyone else in this thread thinks of people with same sex attraction as being subhuman or inferior to the rest of humanity, merely in the hopes of scoring debating points. I hope anyone who has praised your sense and demeanor in the past on this thread sees your exchange, and adjusts their view of you accordingly due to it.

    Also, I think that it is wonderful that you have friends and family who live active homosexual and transgendered lifestyles.

    No, you don't, you sad little internet warrior. You find my attitude inconvenient for the discussion, and troubling for your precious little picture of yourself as a morally and intellectually superior person, at least with regards to we *gasp* traditionalist religious people.

    However, I find it ironic that you would be offended by me pointing out the fact that a particular metaphysical system necessarily looks upon your cherished friends and family as inferior examples of human beings

    One more time: Fuck you. And fuck you again for doubling down on this. They are not "inferior examples of human beings", they are human beings who, like all of us, have temptations, people who fall short of an ideal, often while struggling to attain it.

    I mean, you can’t have it both ways. You can’t act like you are a defender of your homosexual and transgendered friends and family to the point that you curse and swear at anyone who dares imply that they are defective in any way,

    Who denied that they have temptations that are immoral? Who denied that they make mistakes?

    Here's what I can have, dguller: I can recognize that someone who has a strong urge to be an alcoholic is not "inferior" to me as a human being, despite my not having that urge. They are not subhuman. Likewise, my having a flaw - a temptation towards sin, or even a history of falling to that sin - does not make me subhuman, or an "inferior human being" automatically compared to others.

    I don't "curse and swear" simply at the suggestion that they experience a temptation, or may have fallen prey to those temptations. I curse and swear at your extreme liberal arrogance which encourages you to caricature people and their beliefs, such that we either regard their sexual behavior as morally sanctified and pure, or else suggest that we view them with the same language as the most vile of social Darwinists.

    One more time, dguller: no, they are not subhuman. No, an individual having sex attraction does not make them 'inferior' to some other heterosexual being.

    So, one more time: with regards to your particular move here? Your nasty, hateful little smear that suggests I think of my friends and family with same-sex attraction as subhuman compared to heterosexuals, inferior beings to their vaunted heterosexual superiors? I say, one more time.

    Fuck you, dguller.

    And frankly, I'd encourage anyone else to have the same reply to you on this one. It's one thing to give flawed arguments. It's one thing to have a misunderstanding. But what you're doing, right here? It's on the level of a Godwinning. In fact, it's worse.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Josh,

    Just wanted to dip in (I'm not plunging into this mess); but something Dguller said:

    Its nature depends upon what we define its nature to be, unlike hydrogen, whose nature is what it is independent of our needs or wishes may be.

    I mean, a realist of the A-T bent should honestly just read that sentence and stop, realize that he can go no further arguing the finer points deriving from such a position, and move on. Statements of this form are/must be true "agree to disagree" propositions between Idealists and Realists.


    Not to drag you into this, but I think there's far worse going on with dguller on this subject than this legitimate point.

    Anyone else in this thread can see fit to argue with someone who tells them that, because you regard certain sexual acts as immoral, you regard people with same-sex attraction as subhumans or inferiors. I consider that as over the line as suggesting that someone endorses racial genocide on the grounds that they, say, are opposed to a welfare state.

    I've seen dguller engage in plenty of level-headed conversations, and receive a lot of deserved praise around here. On this one? He went over the line. Any Thomist - hell, anyone who simply regards certain sexual acts as immoral - should draw a line in the sand with regards to his words, because it's slander of a very foul kind. When called on it, he doubled down. This shouldn't be overlooked just because he says nice things about The Last Superstition generally.

    Until he withdraws his comments and apologizes on this one, I leave him to the rest of you to discuss things with, should you all choose.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Whoa man, calm down.

    No need to curse the guy until you knock his hair black!


    Having a nervous breakdown helps no one including you Crude

    ReplyDelete
  46. dguller,

    Suggesting Crude thinks his gay friends and family are "inferior" and trying to link it to AT viewpoint can drag down your already high credibility.

    Come on man your one of the good ones.

    You are way better then that.

    Crude,

    I know I am the last person to say this.

    I understand how you feel. If someone made a crack about Autism and my kids I would say worst than you but roll it back please.

    dguller isn't likely saying this to be a punk. He really thinks he is trying to be just towards gays and fighting forces that treat gays unjustly.

    He is a good guy and you know an Atheist who earns that respect from me likely deserves it.

    ReplyDelete
  47. I blame myself.

    I set a bad example with my limitless super internet rage.

    ReplyDelete
  48. In particular, natural selection does not start with self-interest, but produces it -- as I originally said -- while markets are ways to collaboratively organize existing self-interests.

    Way to beg the question.

    I'm not getting into this argument with you again, though. Your brain has been blenderized by Gnuic thinking. Logical contradictions seem perfectly sane to you.

    ReplyDelete
  49. >Any Thomist - hell, anyone who simply regards certain sexual acts as immoral - should draw a line in the sand with regards to his words, because it's slander of a very foul kind.

    I would not tell him to fuck himself.

    I would use some well aimed Catholic/Jewish guilt and point out that he is a rational arguer & an Atheist who has an excellent understanding of Thomism but that with such an argument he should too much like a common Gnu and that he is better than that. Which he is.

    But I would withhold the "f-bomb" unless he mocked my kids which I doubt he ever would do.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Eduardo,

    No need to curse the guy until you knock his hair black!

    You think that's a cursing out? Nah, not at all. I made my attitude clear, and didn't go beyond that.

    And it's not a breakdown either. It's drawing a line in the sand, a very reasonable one. I was fine, entirely fine, with dguller's other replies. I think he's wrong, I think he's mistaken, but that's fine. Even if he were to have merely gotten curt or snobby, I would have rolled with it. It's small stuff.

    No, I draw the line at being told that I regard people as inferiors or subhuman because of my commitment or at least strong sympathy to a moral view that concludes some sexual acts are immoral. It doesn't follow from Thomism whatsoever, not without so much manipulation and butchering of the understanding and terminology that the smart money says conscious effort is required.

    If I told dguller that he was a conscious and willful defender of child molestation, on the grounds that he's making a defense of sexual urges that are very strong, he'd have every right to say "Fuck you, Crude", tell me I crossed a line, and treat that as the end of the conversation until he backed off. There's a reasonable expectation of respect all people should have in polite conversation.

    He violated that term. So yeah, I'm done with him. And I'll go one further and say I think any defender of Thomist metaphysics, or person who thinks that some sexual behaviors are immoral, including same-sex sexual activity, should do the same. Not because "he offended me personally", but because of just what he's saying - consciously, nastily affirming - about the belief and natural law system itself. Unless you believe that yes, in fact, people with SSA are subhuman - in which case, go ahead and step forth to identify yourself, so I can distance myself from you.

    The internet is a big place - there are plenty of worthy people to have a discussion with. I don't have to sit by and let myself be insulted to that degree, to turn a blind eye to a nasty rhetorical smear like that - and it would be wrong to do so. Do you have family, friends, anyone who's a Catholic or a thomist? Would you blow off someone who accused them of regarding people - whole classes of individuals - as subhuman, or inferiors?

    I'm always harping about Christians and theists who give respect, time and attention to people who go too far, or who cross lines I consider to be beyond the pale. Well, time for me to be consistent in that.

    Dguller can apologize, or my response to him stands. If I'm alone in that, so be it.

    ReplyDelete
  51. >Any Thomist - hell, anyone who simply regards certain sexual acts as immoral - should draw a line in the sand with regards to his words, because it's slander of a very foul kind.

    I would not tell him to fuck himself.

    I would use some well aimed Catholic/Jewish guilt and point out that he is a rational arguer & an Atheist who has an excellent understanding of Thomism but that with such an argument he sounds too much like a common Gnu and that he is better than that. Which he is.

    But I would withhold the "f-bomb" unless he mocked my kids which I doubt he ever would do.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Crude,

    You have every right to be offended.

    But dguller might not see past the "fuck you".

    Just saying.

    ReplyDelete
  53. ...I have a lot of work to do, so I will not be able to comment further. I hope, though, that this topic comes up again.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Ben,

    First, thanks for your earlier compliments.

    Second, you say this.

    I know I am the last person to say this.

    I understand how you feel. If someone made a crack about Autism and my kids I would say worst than you but roll it back please.


    Are your kids catholic, Ben? Do they agree with you on this? May they, someday?

    Because if so, then dguller either did insult your kids (or your friends and family), or he's setting the stage for it.

    His accusation wasn't against me, period. It was against the Thomist system, the Church's teaching, and quite possibly against anyone who views same-sex sexual activity as immoral.

    He's maligning - I say consciously, willfully, tactically maligning - a system, to score rhetorical points.

    dguller isn't likely saying this to be a punk. He really thinks he is trying to be just towards gays and fighting forces that treat gays unjustly.

    I think it's both, Ben. If you disagree, that's fine. I'm not going to yell at anyone for failing to jump onboard with me here, but I stand by what I said - and I think the line I just drew was reasonable. And yes, I think anyone who disagrees is mistaken.

    I blame myself.

    I set a bad example with my limitless super internet rage.


    No, Ben. You've seen me discuss things long enough to know I don't do this lightly.

    I cannot and will not let nasty, grave insults like this slide. I have not denied dguller's past contributions - I've pointed them out. But they don't give him a get out of jail free card when he pulls this. He can apologize if he wants. If he stands by it, that's his call. I've already made my call.

    And I consider it to be a grave mistake to let smears like the kind he pulled out slide by as if they're nothing. Because you know what? They get repeated. They have rhetorical, if not rational, force. That's why they're used to begin with.

    It's alright to get offended, Ben. It's fine to call someone out for a mistake they make, even if their reputation is otherwise stellar. Clearly you can do so with me. At the least, I'd hope someone can appreciate why I'd do this with dguller.

    But I don't expect that apology or withdrawl to come on his part, and I won't turn this thread into "Crude lecturing everyone on his views about standards of discussion, along with where, when and how lines should be drawn". I've said my piece, I have zero expectation dguller will apologize and walk back his comments, and so I withdraw.

    By all means, argue with who you will. But please remember that who you argue with, what you let slide, has greater repercussions, and helps set the tone for and attitude of the culture at large.

    ReplyDelete
  55. To quote Dr. Smith.

    "Oh the pain...."

    ReplyDelete
  56. I think dguller needs to understand the distinction between "inferior" and "imperfect". It's very important to natural law thinking. There is no such thing as an inferior human being, because we are all rational animals--even those who wind up in vegetative states. No one is ever "inferior".

    On the other hand, if you think of it in terms of imperfection, then it starts to make sense. Who is ever perfect? Who can always and forever live virtuously, without even a trace of vice? It's impossible. Also, is any person--incapable as s/he is of avoiding all vice--justified in calling someone in the same boat "inferior"? Not at all.

    Is it wrong, then, to condemn acts of vice? This doesn't follow in the slightest. As long as one never assumes an air of superiority (pride being the worst vice), it's perfectly fine to say that certain actions lead to imperfection. Unnatural sexual behavior happens to be one such set of actions. Because of this, it's quite easy to hold A-T views while respecting those who engage in homosexual behavior. Crude can entertain both notions without cognitive dissonance.

    ReplyDelete
  57. goddinpotty said...Is a escheria coli bacterium teleological? What about an autocatalyzing network of RNA molecules?

    Yes, yes, and A MILLION TIMES YES! Holy subhuman illiteracy Batman, how can you after all this time still have no freaking clue what teleology is about?!?!?


    I am quite impressed with how confused this is. Really. It is confused in interesting ways.

    As opposed to gip, who is confused in painfully uninteresting ways. I've done it, haven't I, I'm feeding a troll, right? Can anyone provide any evidence at all that gip is not actually just a persistent and annoying troll? I mean, don't attribute malice when stupidity will suffice only goes so far...

    ReplyDelete
  58. Holy subhuman illiteracy Batman, how can you after all this time still have no freaking clue what teleology is about?!?!?

    He can't know what teleology is about because "about-ness" is teleological and teleology doesn't exist. Pretty simple... right?

    ReplyDelete
  59. Crude and dguller were using "inferior" in different ways. Crude got pissy about dguller's usage, and dguller was no doubt confused by Crude's indignation.

    ReplyDelete
  60. @Eduardo

    --".... this is Natural Selection the Feral Spirit folks, calm the heck down.

    The other natural selection which is just a statistical change, is not at play yet !!!! sort of ...."


    I laughed when I read it. That was good.

    ReplyDelete
  61. "telelogy" can mean different things and I was enquiring precisely what was meant. If this causes howls of outrage, I assume that's because you can't or won't respond to the substantive points. Pity, there is actually an interesting discussion to be had on these issues.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Is it me or is GIP calling the Blind Feral Spirit of natural selection here:

    "Natural selection and the market are similar in certain ways -- they are both distributed systems with no central control, that act over time to optimize certain things (suriviability, wealth)."

    To think only a few days ago we were criticizing the problem of concretizing the abstract...

    ReplyDelete
  63. I remember when I had a knock down fight with dguller a long while back.

    Truth be told I was a little floored by his critique of analogy & didn't have an answer to it.

    It humbled me so I got mad & changed the subject to the Incarnation which dguller flubbed because he wouldn't/couldn't understand the Incarnation except in terms of the monophysite heresy.

    It was quite unpleasant and I regretted it ever since.

    dguller to his credit has I recall forgiven me my part in that. I of course forgive him any slights he has done to me.

    OTOH I understand Crude's feelings here. Believing something is not perfect does not equal believing something is inferior.

    RS said it best. Imperfect does not equal inferior.

    OTOH I have called Gnu'Atheists inferior. Let me be honest again. I just say that to insult them. Nothing more.

    Maybe I should re-think that.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Crude:

    Civil unions. Marriage is off-limits. After all, we can call it whatever we want, as you said.

    Fine. Call heterosexual marriages, “heterosexual marriages”, and homosexual marriages, “homosexual marriages”. After all, we can call it whatever we want, as I said.

    Thanks for your concession on this one.

    You’re welcome.

    Why would I need the example of a country, as opposed to a culture? I am very, very well aware that A) the modern attitude towards sexuality is pretty damn prevalent throughout most of the developed or even developing world, and B) that one can have a traditional attitude towards sexuality while still having problems, even serious ones.

    The issue here is that there is an empirical claim that adhering to a traditional conception of marriage as exclusively between a male and female has positive benefits to individuals and society that is completely absent where modern ideas, such as same-sex marriage, are acceptable. I was wondering if there were any cultures or whatever, where this was demonstrable. Perhaps the Amish would be a fair example here, but I don’t know any data about them.

    Are you honestly asking me to find a nation without cultural and moral problems? Are you telling me that pointing out the failings of a particular nation or culture is invalid unless I produce a perfect, living example?

    No need for a perfect example. Any example would be fine, at least for a start for discussion. Perfection is far too high a standard for anyone, and certainly unfair for me to hold you to.

    Man, you just love the strawmen. A traditional attitude towards sexuality does not mean "stay at home bitches and pump out young'ns!" Is your every mental picture of a non-liberal this shitty?

    Maybe I do have a simplistic understanding, but “the final cause or natural purpose of sex is: procreation” (TLS, p. 141), which means that if you want to engage in sexual activity properly, then it must be with the understanding that it must ultimately be about having children. Now, for a woman, if she wants to have sex, then the only proper way to do so is with the intention of having children, which means getting pregnant. To do otherwise, while being sexually active, would be a frustration of “what nature’s purposes are” (TLS, p. 141), which is what a Thomist would define as “bad” or “evil”. And after she had children, then her primary role is to raise them as a mother, because that is what marriage is supposed to be all about, i.e. procreation and raising children in a stable setting.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Crude:

    What does a woman do if she both wants to have a higher education, be gainfully employed, and yet be sexually active? Well, she can’t, according to traditional natural law theory, unless she is extremely lucky to never get pregnant. After all, it is impermissible to utilize contraception to avoid pregnancy and child-rearing, both of which are inhibitory of the achievement of higher education and gainful employment, because they occupy the majority of one’s time. I mean, how could a woman become the CEO of a company, if she was pregnant every few years, had to take several months off for the pregnancy, and a few years off to raise the kids, at least until they started school?

    I mean, why do you think that women are so adamant about their reproductive rights? Because they are sluts who just want to fuck without consequence? I don’t think so. It’s because without access to contraception, for example, they know that their ability to make long-term educational and career plans will be compromised by the risk of becoming pregnant and the disruptions of those goals that result from a pregnancy. After all, “Mother Nature has put a fairly heavy burden on women, who, if ‘nature takes its course,’ are bound to become pregnant somewhat frequently” (TLS, p. 143).

    In more traditional times, if a woman wanted to have a higher education, then she would have had to join the clergy as a nun and become celibate. So, even in medieval times, there was an understanding that sexual activity necessarily – metaphysically! – must be directed towards procreation, and pregnancy and child-rearing are ends until themselves that leave little to no room for higher study and other activities. So, to have such higher learning, sexual activity would have to be abandoned, which also had higher spiritual implications.

    So, I disagree that this is a straw man. I may be wrong, but I think that this is the inevitable implications of a natural law theory in which all sexual activity that is considered “natural” and permissible must be directed towards procreation and child-rearing, which necessarily requires a marital relationship for the required long-term stability to raise children well. As Feser writes: “The teleology or final causality of sex thus pushes inevitably in the direction of at least some variation on the institution of marriage, and marriage exists for the purpose of generating and nourishing offspring not only biologically but culturally” (TLS, p. 144). It all holds together as a unified system, at least as far as I can tell.


    Yes, I think contraception and the attitude that goes with it hand in hand is morally damaging, among other things. No, I am not against educating women, women who decide not to have families, women who dedicate themselves to a career, etc. Again, the very existence of nuns as even a single example should suffice to make you back off this in advance. But no, apparently you're going to make me point this crap out.

    Right, but in order for women to be educated and to have a career, they must be celibate, because if they are sexually active, then it is a perversion of their nature to use contraception, which thwarts the final end of the sexual act, and thus is morally repugnant. And so, they compromise the long-term planning and dedication necessary for higher learning and a career, because they will inevitably become pregnant. Maybe only women who are sexually active, but infertile, get a free pass, because they did not choose not to have children. Every other sexually active woman is out of luck, under this framework, because they are prohibited from the resources to avoid pregnancy and the disruption it brings to other worthwhile goals that a woman may have.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Crude:

    Because we're not attempting to solve an efficiency problem in SimCity, which is the way you're treating this issue. We're dealing with questions of a good upbringing, moral dimensions, societal direction, understanding and more.

    I agree that this is not SimCity. This is reality, and in reality, homosexual marriage is happening, and you can empirically study the consequences of it regarding the emotional and physical well-being of individuals and the overall society.

    Again, this isn't SimCity. A traditional marriage is a positive factor, but not the only factor in play - again, just because you're a man and you're married to a woman does not mean "Well crap they get a magical bonus which means they provide the absolute best environment for a child from all legitimate perspectives!"

    Great. Then the Catholic church should have no theoretical objection to a sexually active homosexual couple that wants to adopt a child. After all, traditional marriage is “not the only factor in play”, which means that the issue is more complicated than bumper slogans.

    Welcome to reality, dguller! It doesn't fit into the neat little arrangement you just tried to set up. We have an abundance of children in need of homes, a variety of possibilities to examine for raising them, and while some factors are better than others, the perfectly ideal family doesn't exist. A single man of good moral character and means may be the best option for a child available. He may be the better option than an orphanage, or a very flawed married man and wife.

    That’s great. I’m glad to hear that no traditional religious figure would object to a sexually active homosexual couple that is otherwise morally impeccable adopting a child from an orphanage. It’s not like they would shut down their charities in Illinois rather than allow children to be adopted into homosexual couples. Oh wait.

    In other words, there are options that are completely out of bounds when it comes to adoption, and I’m curious what the justification is to deny homosexual couples the opportunity to adopt. Because they are unnatural in their sexual acts? How does that necessarily compromise their ability to raise children well? Does that mean that heterosexual couples that are also into anal and oral sex should also be denied adoption privileges?

    So, who's 'better'? I'm going to suggest that according to Thomist metaphysics, your reply - "Well Charles is a better man on Thomism. He's not attracted to men!" - is incorrect. Obviously incorrect.

    I would say that Rick is better, because there are a number of aspects of human nature, and sexuality is only one of them, which has been one of my main points. To take sexual behavior and turn it into such an important factor in the morality and goodness of individuals ignores the complexities of not only human nature but human behavior.

    But let’s take another example. Say that Rick is like Charles in every way, except that Rick is homosexual and sexually active, but Charles is heterosexual and sexually active. According to Thomist principles, who is better?

    ReplyDelete
  67. Crude:

    To answer that question, you need to keep a few ideas in mind, which I tried to explain above. X is good to the extent that X is actualizing the underlying potentialities in X’s nature as an A. If X is actualizing more potentialities in its nature as an A than Y, then X is a better example of an A than Y, and it is because X is more A than Y is, because X has more actual reality than Y. According to Stump: “A thing’s goodness and the actualization of the thing’s specifying potentiality are coextensive” (Aquinas, p. 71). Unless someone wants to contradict this general structure, then I’ll assume that I understand it.

    If my understanding is sound, and it might not be, according to Thomist principles, it is clearly Charles who is better than Rick, because he is expressing his sexual nature, which is a part of his human nature, according to its proper purpose, whereas Rick is obstructing his sexual nature’s proper purpose. According to Thomism, the more something actualizes its nature, the more good it is, and the less something actualizes its nature, the less good it is. Thus, Charles would be more human -- in the sense of actualizing his human nature more -- than Rick, which also necessarily means that Rick would be considered less human. Note that this does not mean that Rick is subhuman, i.e. not even human. He is a human being, to be sure, but a defective and flawed one, because he is thwarting his natural sexual purpose.

    So no, it doesn't "follow" that being homosexual makes you "inferior" to heterosexuals on Thomism.

    Not in every case, but specifically when it comes to actualizing our sexual natures, it does.

    Because even on a Thomist understanding, there is a radical difference between refusing to engage in a sexual act, and engaging in a corrupted sexual act.

    I don’t see this a distinction that makes a difference. The bottom line is that there remains a potentiality within human nature that is not being actualized, which is necessarily a bad thing, according to Thomism. Whether it is not being actualized by simply not engaging in the end in question, or by doing the opposite, does not seem relevant. In reality, there is just the ongoing presence of an underlying potentiality that is not being actualized. As I mentioned above, if you have a spectrum from total actualization of trait T to total potentiality of trait T, then I can understand that sometimes you actualize T more than others, but I cannot understand how doing the opposite of T would sit upon this spectrum.

    Again, if you think that under a Thomist understanding, all people are mandated to engage in heterosexual sex and produce children, you're operating with a pretty warped understanding of natural law and thomism.

    But in Thomism, if you want to have sex at all in a way that is natural and good, then it must be in a heterosexual marital relationship. As Feser writes: “Since the final cause of human sexual capacities is procreation, what is good for human beings in the use of those capacities is to use them only in a way consistent with this final cause or purpose. This is a necessary truth; for the good for us is defined by our nature and the final causes of its various elements” (TLS, p. 145), and “every sexual act has as its natural culmination, its proximate final cause, ejaculation into the vagina, and that the man and woman involved in such an act cannot act in a way to prevent this result, nor act to prevent the overall process form having conception as an outcome, whether or not that outcome is what they have in mind in performing the act … they may indulge in this act, in a way that is consistent with its procreative final cause or natural end … only if they married to one another” (TLS, p. 146).

    ReplyDelete
  68. Crude:

    Like I said - fuck you. And you should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting I or anyone else in this thread thinks of people with same sex attraction as being subhuman or inferior to the rest of humanity, merely in the hopes of scoring debating points. I hope anyone who has praised your sense and demeanor in the past on this thread sees your exchange, and adjusts their view of you accordingly due to it.

    It doesn’t matter what you think or don’t think. All that matters is what the system that you happen to endorse actually implies. You can think whatever you want, but Thomist metaphysical principles are quite clear that with respects to our sexual nature, those who engage in homosexual sexual acts are less human than those that engage in heterosexual sexual acts. This also applies to heterosexuals who engage in sex outside of marriage, who use contraception, who enjoy oral and anal sex, and so this does not exclusively apply to homosexuals, but they are just one example of a group of human beings who have a corrupted expression of their sexual nature. After all, “to choose in line with the final causes or purposes that are ours by nature is morally good; to choose against them is morally bad” (TLS, p. 137), and that “where sex is concerned – acting contrary to them cannot fail to be of serious moral significance” (TLS, p 149).

    No, you don't, you sad little internet warrior. You find my attitude inconvenient for the discussion, and troubling for your precious little picture of yourself as a morally and intellectually superior person, at least with regards to we *gasp* traditionalist religious people.

    Not at all. I think that we are all liable to cognitive dissonance, and that includes myself. So, you invent distinctions and differentiations that protect you from the full consequences of your views, especially towards those who you are close to.

    One more time: Fuck you. And fuck you again for doubling down on this. They are not "inferior examples of human beings", they are human beings who, like all of us, have temptations, people who fall short of an ideal, often while struggling to attain it.

    And like all of us who fail to actualize our underlying human natures, we are less fully human those whose who actualize their underlying human natures more than us. However, there is a particular emphasis made upon our sexual nature that I think is misplaced and misguided, and leads to a particularly avoidable form of human suffering, especially by ostrasizing a part of the human population who actually have no choice in their sexual inclinations, and whose sexual activities ultimately have no universal impact upon society at large, especially when they are otherwise upstanding and moral individuals of integrity.

    It also has a negative impact when the church prohibits contraception even to the extent of prohibiting the use of condoms in AIDS-infested areas of Africa. Again, sexual issues seem to trump any other considerations, and so although you want to act like sexual immorality is just a particular kind of immorality, the Catholic church seems to take it much more seriously than you let on.

    ReplyDelete
  69. Here's what I can have, dguller: I can recognize that someone who has a strong urge to be an alcoholic is not "inferior" to me as a human being, despite my not having that urge. They are not subhuman. Likewise, my having a flaw - a temptation towards sin, or even a history of falling to that sin - does not make me subhuman, or an "inferior human being" automatically compared to others.

    If there are other human beings who actualize their human natures more than you do, then you are, in fact, less human than they are in the sense of being a less perfect exemplification of humanity. And no human is subhuman, by definition. They are all human beings, although some are more defective than others, according to natural law theory.

    One more time, dguller: no, they are not subhuman. No, an individual having sex attraction does not make them 'inferior' to some other heterosexual being.

    If X actualizes its nature A more than Y actualizes its nature A, then X is a better A than Y, because X has more being, and thus more goodness, than Y. And if X is more good than Y, then X is superior to Y with respect to being a better A, and thus Y is inferior to X with respect to being a worse A.

    Find me a Thomist who would disagree with anything that in the above paragraph.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Rank:

    I think dguller needs to understand the distinction between "inferior" and "imperfect". It's very important to natural law thinking. There is no such thing as an inferior human being, because we are all rational animals--even those who wind up in vegetative states. No one is ever "inferior".

    Explain to me how X can be more perfect than Y, but X is not superior or better than Y? Isn’t it the case that perfection is better than imperfection, particularly, because perfection is associated with being, and being is associated with goodness, meaning that the more perfect X = the more actual X = the more good X. So, how can you say that X has more perfection, and more actual being, and more goodness than Y, but you cannot say that X is superior to Y?

    ReplyDelete
  71. Crude:

    And I stand by my position. No apologies. No retractions. No withdrawal whatsoever.

    If my account of Thomism is correct, particularly on the metaphysics, then it is perfectly permissible in Thomism to say that if X and Y share a common nature A, but X actualizes it’s a nature more than Y actualizes it’s a nature, then X has more actual being, and thus more perfection, and thus more goodness, than Y with respect to their common nature A.

    Human sexuality has a particular nature and final cause, which is procreation, and which necessarily and metaphysically demands a heterosexual relationship, particularly within the confines of a traditional marriage. Those who are in heterosexual and marital relationships are actualizing their sexual nature more than those who are not, including (but not exclusively) homosexuals, and thus have more actual being, more perfection and more goodness with regards to their sexual nature. That makes them superior to those who have less actualization of their sexual nature’s final ends, and thus have less perfection and less goodness. That is why the former are more human in the sense of actualizing more of their sexual nature than the latter, which makes them more real and thus better and superior.

    Oh, and I would tell you to go fuck yourself, but that would encourage “unnatural” behavior, which would be less perfect, less actual and less good, according to Thomism. Also, I’m not crude.

    ReplyDelete
  72. And yet, Eugenics did not follow from A-T philosophies...

    Something is amiss here-

    ReplyDelete
  73. dguller,

    recalling an important may prove helpful here:

    substances qua substances, as Aristotle says, don't undergo 'more or less' of what they are. only accidents can be more or less of what they are. otherwise, the unity of substances would be destroyed.

    given that, one cannot then say people who engage in unnatural acts are less, qua *human* substances, than people that do not. but they are in one sense less than them i.e., in terms of the accidental modifications of the substances that they are. but Crude's point is also well-taken: you cannot determine which is less of a human (again, not qua substance but qua accidents) simply on the basis of this one issue for there may be certain, more important, potencies which the homosexual actualizes that the heterosexual does not.

    however, supposing all things equal. that is, supposing the homosexual and heterosexual are intellectually and morally equal in all other respects but just the nature of their sexual activities, then yes, the latter would be a better human - but again, not qua substance i.e., not insofar as he is a man. for, as Aristotle says, "no single substance admits of varying degrees within itself. For instance, one particular substance, 'man', cannot be more or less man either than himself at some other time or than some other man. One man cannot be more man than another, as that which is white may be more or less white than some other white object, or as that which is beautiful may be more or less beautiful than some other beautiful object."

    it seemed to me that your objection required that the two humans differ i.e., be more or less human, in the way which is here rejected. i could be wrong though.

    ReplyDelete
  74. That may be your understanding of realist philosophy, dguller, but do you think your understanding is correct? Take Crude's earlier reply: in Catholic Thomism, the most perfect human being (indeed, the most perfect creation, even more perfect than the angels in the order of grace) was and is a life-long virgin: Mary, the Queen of Heaven. So which do you think is more likely? That there is an inconsistency in Thomism or that there is a flaw (perhaps more than one) in your understanding of Thomism?

    (I promised I would not comment again, but I just had to ask this quick question.)

    ReplyDelete
  75. Explain to me how X can be more perfect than Y, but X is not superior or better than Y?

    Because perfection does not equal superiority with regard to humans in the A-T sense. It's pretty simple. As you should know by now, humans and non-humans have different standards of "good" and "bad" under natural law. When we say that a human is "good" or "bad", we mean it in a moral sense. When we say that a hammer is "good" or "bad", we mean it in a qualitative sense. You've equivocated terms.

    Now, you might say that someone has superior moral fiber--but that's a separate issue.

    ReplyDelete
  76. @Ben

    I don't see what the problem with analogy is. Analogy is central to language and meaning. In fact, I would say that analogy is more fundamental that literalness.

    I'm not sure of the specifics of your previous discussion nor do I want to scratch old wounds but analogy in general is not something that can be discarded. Not to mention that analogy as a form of expression and understanding has a very unique aesthetic of its own.

    ReplyDelete
  77. In regards to superiority and inferiority in the nature of Mankind:


    So there are two reading here that I am seeing... One claims that not achieving your final goal as a human makes you imperfect, while the other makes you inferior... Semantics aside...

    What would you guys consider the likes of hitler, stalin? What would you consider the likes of marquis de sade and nietzsche?

    Would you not consider them subhuman?

    ReplyDelete
  78. Dguller: Find me a Thomist who would disagree with anything that in the above paragraph.

    Every Thomist would. You've missed the distinction Rank Sophist was making, but it is the key point here: being a less perfect X does not make something not an X. There is probably some linguistic subtleness here; for instance, in English to call something "less human" suggests something "less than human" rather than "less humanly perfected". But the metaphysical subtlety is the important thing, and there is no such thing as being "kind of human" — humanity, or any other essence, does not admit of degrees. Either you are a certain kind of thing or you aren't. You may, as you point out, fulfil that nature more or less imperfectly, but you are never "half human" or "almost human" or "partly human". We may use such phrases figuratively, but you can't cut a form in half. Something either has a substantial human form or it doesn't. It either has the essence of a rock or it doesn't. The essence of a platypus or not.

    Explain to me how X can be more perfect than Y, but X is not superior or better than Y?

    Again, RS's point is quite right, but permit me to quibble about the language. I think that some modern political correctness makes folks reticent to call anyone "inferior" or "superior", but Rank Sophist makes the context quite clear: X can be superior to Y in the sense of being "more perfect" but not in the sense of being "more human", i.e. possessing more human essence. Yehudi Menuhin is most certainly superior to me — qua violin-playing, but not qua being a human. We do use expressions like, "Be a man!" or "You're not half the man he is", but only figuratively. (In fact, I think I would argue that such expressions get their force from not being able to be literally true, but at any rate they certainly cannot be taken literally when applied to the metaphysical point being discussed.)

    [cont...]

    ReplyDelete
  79. [continued...]

    being is associated with goodness, meaning that the more perfect X = the more actual X = the more good X.

    X can be more good than (and thus in that particular sense, "superior" to) Y, but that is a question of how well X instantiates its nature, not a question of whether it has that nature or not. A man without a leg is a defective human being, but he is still a human being, not ⅘ of a human being. The man in a coma is an imperfect human being, not an imperfect chimpanzee, or for that matter a perfect vegetable. Nobody's perfect because nobody perfectly fulfils the standard or exemplar of human nature, but it is precisely because there is a standard, a fixed essence, a single reality (form) of what it means "to be human" that we can say that certain actions or attitudes are perverse. It is the opponent of this view who must logically conclude that homosexuals are "not human" — if there is no single standard, no actual essence for things to be or not be, then all differences are differences in "kind"; "heterosexuals" are one kind of being, and "homosexuals" are different, therefore they are a different kind of being (or I guess you could say it the other way around, which would be equally bad, of course).

    This also touches on your other big mistake, the notion that to be a perfect (or good) human being, one has to activate all human potentials. Feser has explained this before (including in TLS, I thought): one need not fulfil all one's potentials, indeed, one cannot. Mankind is an amazing creature, with nigh-limitless possibilities; to try to achieve all that one person might achieve is simply impossible. To lie around on the couch all day doing nothing would indeed be a flaw (and sinful, assuming you had a choice in the matter); it would be better to get out and fulfil some of your humanity by, say, having a family. But if you don't have a family because you're busy curing cancer, that's fine. Sitting around on your backside is wrong because it doesn't fulfil anything; but there is nothing wrong in not doing good thing X because you're doing good thing Y instead.

    And since life is full of trade-offs, we will not be surprised to see that yes, a woman may have to choose between having a successful career or a large family. Or maybe having a small family and a "small" career. Or between having a fancy car and fancy clothes — not everyone can afford both, after all, any more than one can have maximal familial fulfilment AND maximal career fulfilment AND maximal recreational fulfilment, etc. There is nothing special about women in this case. Men just as much have to make decisions, although obviously some of the particular choices will differ. No man is obligated to have a family, but if he chooses to do so, then he also has a responsibility to raise them and spend time with them, and if that means his career suffers, too bad for his career. One is no more entitled to break moral laws regarding sexuality in order to have one's cake and eat it too any more than one is entitled to break moral laws regarding, say, theft, no matter how much "better" you may be able to fulfil the familial side of your humanity by robbing banks for a living.

    ReplyDelete
  80. Anonymous: What would you guys consider the likes of hitler, stalin? What would you consider the likes of marquis de sade and nietzsche? Would you not consider them subhuman?

    See my previous comment. We can, in some sense, call them "subhuman" or "inhuman". But to call a man a pig or a dog is obviously not a literal statement about his metaphysical essence. If he were a pig, then piggish behaviour would be entirely appropriate, and not a criticism. Rather it is precisely because he is not (literally) an animal that piggish actions are unsuitable (and sinful, if deliberate). To call a wicked person inhuman is to accuse him of acting in a way that might be acceptable for a beast, but is a tragic perversion of his true human nature.

    ReplyDelete
  81. >And I stand by my position. No apologies. No retractions. No withdrawal whatsoever.

    Accept DD, RS and Mr. Green just destroyed this novel claim of yours and showed it cannot be true in any possible universe.

    dguller in no possible universe does the performance of gay sex acts make anyone less human.

    This is as wrong as claiming the Incarnation mandates the human & divine natures in Christ must mix.

    No they don't and no Catholic is allowed to believe the two natures of Christ mix and stay a Catholic.

    No Thomas believes imperfections in human nature equal less than a human nature or an inferior nature.

    Essences are immutable & cannot be changed or have you forgotten that Thomistic Tenet?

    You can change a substance and destroy an essence and it will be replaced by another different essence but an essence itself cannot change.

    Oderberg discusses this in REAL ESSENTALISM to show how the immutability of essences cannot be used as a philosophical argument against Evolution.

    Crude is correct. Maybe he shouldn't have told you to go fuck yourself. Who am I kidding he definitely should not have done that since it likely made you more adversarial.

    But you are clearly wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  82. Crude: Dguller can apologize, or my response to him stands. If I'm alone in that, so be it.

    I myself simply do not believe that Dguller was making a rhetorical attack. This has nothing to do with giving him a "free pass" because of past good behaviour; rather it is because of his track record of not calling people names that leads me to interpret him as not doing so this time either. I think it's clear from his posts that he has got badly hold of the wrong end of the Thomistic stick on this particular point, and given that misunderstanding, I quite understand how he could draw the conclusion he did. Dguller surely has the right to practice what you preach (as one who has just been giving a defence of calling out people who make outrageous claims rather than meekly letting them get away with it), and to charge you with what — in his eyes — was a truly outrageous claim.

    At the same time, I understand why you reacted the way you did. If Dguller really did mean what he said in the way you interpreted him, that would be nasty, and people should not be allowed to get away with such behaviour. I just happen to think that each of you has misunderstood the other.

    ReplyDelete
  83. @ Mr. Green

    I just got done reading your entire response and it more or less fits well with the way I think.

    The conflict in my mind (which is the reason I raised the question) lies in the connection between a human being's essence and the higher aspects of Mankind. Some of our final ends are pretty straight forward such as procreation, nourishment, basic social relations etc. Other final ends require extensive contemplation and exceptional will power such as in the case of formation of character, seeking of truth and so on. On the same level I would put a deep understanding of the value of human life as a reflection of the Divine Image (Imago Dei). In the case of hitler, de sade and so on, this appreciation and heartfelt agape (to use a Biblical word from ancient Greek) is absent. It takes an exceptionally strong person to actualize that human potential, (which some have argued was only truly actualized in Jesus) and in a way is not so immediate to us.

    The issue that I am concerned with (and obviously having some problem expressing) is whether we should restrict the human essence wholly to what is given at the start. What I mean is, since humans are in the process of becoming shouldn't the nature itself be dependent in a way on the responsibilities assumed by the individual? We have a responsibility to Truth just as much as we have a responsibility to the Good... Shouldn't the actualization of that have an effect on the very essence of man?

    In case what I am saying is a bit confusing, let me put it differently... To be a man of Truth and Goodness (to use the proverbial Platonic Forms) one will be considered a man of virtue. But man alone has this unique quality within Reality of having the blessing/curse (depending on how you see it) to take responsibility for his actions given his freedom. What I am getting at is this... shouldn't the actualization of that responsibility towards a life of virtue be considered central to the human essence and given its absence, the entity thus losing its humanity at least in part? We are not like other animals, our very existence comes with a philosophical call to action. Without trying to create dualisms, there is something more to us than the mere natural basics. I think the reason why I am taking it one step further than your analysis is the emphasis I put on the personal responsibility we have.

    I hope that makes sense.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Eduardo: this is Natural Selection the Feral Spirit folks, calm the heck down.

    Ha. I'm saving that one!

    ReplyDelete
  85. Brilliant posts by Mr. Green. Said what I was grasping at, only far better.

    What I am getting at is this... shouldn't the actualization of that responsibility towards a life of virtue be considered central to the human essence and given its absence, the entity thus losing its humanity at least in part?

    This is kind of an existential take on essence. However, I don't think you'd find any support from the average Thomist. Essences are set in stone. People like Hitler and Stalin are no more and no less human than you or I--and that's what makes them so terrifying. We try to demonize these people as "monsters" in order to distances ourselves from them, but, in reality, they're far closer to home than we'd like. Honestly, it can be helpful to remember that there's always a potential Hitler inside everyone.

    ReplyDelete
  86. "Mistake there. I didn't give that to dguller. I gave it to no one in particular, because I thought it offered and interesting insight and had some pertinent information."

    Check it out:

    http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/human_nature/2012/06/don_t_let_criticism_of_the_new_gay_parents_study_become_a_war_on_science.single.html

    ReplyDelete
  87. @Rank Sophist

    Yes, I think you're right that there is a degree of existential influence in what I am saying. I've read both Aquinas and Kierkegaard (some Heiddeger too, but some like to refer to him as a radical phenomenologist instead).

    I'm not necessarily trying to see whether what I am saying would fit in a strictly Thomist or Aristotelian metaphysic but rather to see if perhaps there is an additional step one can take. I also understand that there is a potential for evil inside us and that is indeed a scary part... I sometimes get a taste of it when I watch Dexter giving the "baddies" what they deserve ;-)

    I guess I am just expressing some ideas I have been pondering about and wanted to see how other thought/felt about it from a personal stand-point rather than from a purely philosophical one. To me that call to action that is unique to Mankin comes with this sense of responsibility that is intimately tied with the actualization of certain central higher aspects of our nature (to the point that they form a sort of imperative but not purely in a Kantian sense)... It is that part that I have a difficult time discarding as a mere potential that simply did not happen to get actualized and therefore all else remains equal and the same.

    I guess reading one too many philosophers might have stretched my imagination one measure too much... I don't know. I guess I just want to hear people's personal opinions more than anything else.

    (hopefully what I am saying makes sense)

    ReplyDelete
  88. Mr. Green:

    You've missed the distinction Rank Sophist was making, but it is the key point here: being a less perfect X does not make something not an X

    Where on earth did you get the idea that I thought anything like that?

    Here’s my quote:

    “If X actualizes its nature A more than Y actualizes its nature A, then X is a better A than Y, because X has more being, and thus more goodness, than Y. And if X is more good than Y, then X is superior to Y with respect to being a better A, and thus Y is inferior to X with respect to being a worse A.”

    X and Y both have a common nature A. Obviously, if Y was a less perfect A than X, then Y would still be an A, it would just be an inferior kind of A compared to X.

    Either you are a certain kind of thing or you aren't. You may, as you point out, fulfil that nature more or less imperfectly, but you are never "half human" or "almost human" or "partly human". We may use such phrases figuratively, but you can't cut a form in half. Something either has a substantial human form or it doesn't. It either has the essence of a rock or it doesn't. The essence of a platypus or not.

    I agree. X and Y have the same common nature A. However, how they actualize that nature is different in that X actualizes more of A than Y does, which means that, in a sense, X is more real than Y, because X has less potential than Y. Now, if you want to jettison the idea of degrees of being, then that is fine, but then you have made the very notion of actualizing one’s nature an all-or-nothing phenomenon, not admitting any degrees, and thus have left no room for potential being, and leaving us with Parmenides’ paradoxes.

    However, if you want to accept the idea of degrees of being, then you have to accept the coherence of something having more being and less being than something else. And if you do that, then you can say that X is more real than Y, if it actualizes more of its nature. That is one of the reasons why Pure Act is more real than any material entity, i.e. it has no potentiality whatsoever, and potential being is less real than actual being.

    X can be superior to Y in the sense of being "more perfect" but not in the sense of being "more human", i.e. possessing more human essence.

    Again, why wouldn’t you say that a person that actualizes their human nature more than another person could not be considered more real? Are you saying that more actual being could not be considered more real? How does that make sense? And if you accept the coherence of this idea, then what is the problem with saying that if X actualizes it’s nature A more than Y actualizes its nature A, then X is a more perfect A than Y, which means that X has more actual being qua A than Y, which means that X is more A than Y. “More” meaning “more actual being qua a common essence”.

    ReplyDelete
  89. Mr. Green:

    This also touches on your other big mistake, the notion that to be a perfect (or good) human being, one has to activate all human potentials. Feser has explained this before (including in TLS, I thought): one need not fulfil all one's potentials, indeed, one cannot.

    I never said that one needed to fulfill all of one’s potentials. I said that the more one actualizes the potentiality in one’s essence E, the more perfect an example of E one is. Only God is Pure Act, and thus setting the standard for humans to be Pure Act would be ludicrous, which is why I would never say such a thing.

    All I need for my argument is that there are degrees of perfection, which correspond to degrees of actual being, and which correspond to degrees of goodness. If you want to reject this core Thomist idea, be my guest, but if you accept it, then I don’t think that you can escape the idea that if X actualizes its nature A more than Y, then X is more A than Y. You may not like it, in the same way that some atheists don’t like the idea that evil does not actually exist, according to Thomist principles, but whether you like an idea or not is irrelevant. All that matters is whether it follows from principles, and I think mine clearly does.

    ReplyDelete
  90. Ben:

    Accept DD, RS and Mr. Green just destroyed this novel claim of yours and showed it cannot be true in any possible universe.

    Sorry, they didn’t.

    dguller in no possible universe does the performance of gay sex acts make anyone less human.

    It makes one a less perfect human, no? And degrees of perfection = degrees of actual being = degrees of goodness, and this is all relative to the expression of an underlying essence. So, less perfect = less actual being = less good = less expression of an underlying essence. Of course, whatever is an imperfect example of A is still an A, but just a faulty and defective A. And if you add the above equivalences, then you necessarily get from an imperfect A to a less actual A, which means that it is less A than something more perfect.

    Jeez. Why object to this so hard, y’all? You are like someone who hears the doctrine that evil does not actually exist, and refuses to understand what this actually means. It does not mean that good people don’t suffer or that evil happens to people. In the same way, my argument doesn’t mean that homosexuals should be treated inferiorly, because they imperfectly exemplify their human nature.

    Good Lord!

    ReplyDelete
  91. And here’s another point.

    It seems that people here want to de-emphasize sexuality and say that the unnatural expression of one’s sexual nature in terms of interfering with the fulfillment of its procreative final end is not the most important deficiency in the world. One shouldn’t judge homosexuals, or those who use contraception, or those who enjoy anal or oral sex, or those who simply want to be married without wanting to have children, as just like anyone of us with our own imperfect expression of our human nature, and our own sinful behavior. And that maybe you need to take into account the totality of a human being, and that it might still be possible for someone to have actualize their highest good even though some lower natural inclinations are subverted.

    If that is so, then we are all in agreement. I started this whole discussion by wondering if someone who is actively homosexual, and thus not expressing their sexual nature in a way conducive to the actualization of the end of procreation, and yet still live a meaningful, fulfilling life that achieved both individual and social well-being. It seems that we all agree that this is certainly possible, and that just because someone fails to actualize a potential final end, as long as it is a lower-level one, and they maximally exert themselves to actualize their higher final ends, then we have no business judging them as inferior or defective.

    Great.

    Then there is no longer any justification to prohibit homosexuals from adopting children.

    ReplyDelete
  92. Again, why wouldn’t you say that a person that actualizes their human nature more than another person could not be considered more real? Are you saying that more actual being could not be considered more real? How does that make sense?

    This is gibberish, dguller. What is it even supposed to mean? Are you saying that a human in a vegetative state less real than a saint, for instance? Pure nonsense. The actualization of potential is absolutely irrelevant to the worth of a human. Even a human with brain damage and no limbs is as fundamentally human and real as the Pope.

    Now, you might call this stub-human "defective"--but not in the same sense that you would call homosexual behavior defective. As I said before, you've sloppily equivocated between two senses of "goodness". Moral goodness--the only kind of goodness that has any bearing on this discussion--requires an active, free will. It is fundamentally different from the kind of goodness that you would attribute to a bush or a leg. First of all, it relates to a person's actions, rather than to the person himself. Engaging in homosexual behavior is not equivalent to, for example, physically losing an arm. It doesn't make you a "defective human" in the same way that brain damage makes you a "defective human". Your argument rests on this confusion, but it has been compounded by several others.

    ReplyDelete
  93. Pardon me: "in a vegetative state is less real".

    ReplyDelete
  94. Rank:

    This is gibberish, dguller. What is it even supposed to mean? Are you saying that a human in a vegetative state less real than a saint, for instance? Pure nonsense. The actualization of potential is absolutely irrelevant to the worth of a human. Even a human with brain damage and no limbs is as fundamentally human and real as the Pope.

    First, if you disagree with the idea of degrees of being, then take it up with the Thomists here.

    Second, although all humans have the same intrinsic worth, there are other factors that can modulate that worth. For example, take two 20 year olds, each in need of a heart transplant, or they will die within a month, one in a vegetative state, and the other fully conscious. Who should get the heart transplant first, if there is only one available? If they both have exactly the same worth, independent of how much they actualize their human nature, which is the same in both of them, then it would be fine to give it to the person in the vegetative state over the conscious person, right?

    Now, you might call this stub-human "defective"--but not in the same sense that you would call homosexual behavior defective. As I said before, you've sloppily equivocated between two senses of "goodness". Moral goodness--the only kind of goodness that has any bearing on this discussion--requires an active, free will. It is fundamentally different from the kind of goodness that you would attribute to a bush or a leg.

    Fine. Homosexuals who live a sexually active lifestyle commit are morally bad, which is different from a person in a vegetative state, or a poorly drawn triangle, or a dog with a broken leg, which are all also bad, but not morally bad. There. How does that change my argument?

    ReplyDelete
  95. Rank:

    Again, say that X and Y both share a common essence E, and that in order to be an E, one must have the potentiality to be A, B and C. So, A, B, and C are part of the definition of what it means to be an E, which is what it means that they are part of the essence E. At the very least, A, B and C must exist potentially in both X and Y, because they share E in common.

    Say that X actualizes A and B, but Y only actualizes A. With regards to X, there are more potential properties actualized in the real world than with regards to Y, which means that with regards to X, there is more reality. Unless you want to argue that more actual being does not count as more reality, I don’t really see how you escape this conclusion.

    ReplyDelete
  96. >Sorry, they didn’t.

    Clearly they did. Denial is not just a river that runs threw Egypt.

    >It makes one a less perfect human, no? And degrees of perfection = degrees of actual being = degrees of goodness, and this is all relative to the expression of an underlying essence.

    Essence is immutible take it up with Aquinas & Oderberg. An essence can be destroyed and a thing can become something else & have a new essence but it's current essence remains what it is as long as it exists.

    >So, less perfect = less actual being = less good = less expression of an underlying essence. Of course, whatever is an imperfect example of A is still an A, but just a faulty and defective A.

    Yes your fallacy of equivocation between accidents and essence is your new pretending the incarnation is monophysite argument and it is still wrong.

    Live with it.

    >And if you add the above equivalences, then you necessarily get from an imperfect A to a less actual A, which means that it is less A than something more perfect.

    Sorry no, I wear glasses so I actualize the ability to see less than a person with normal sight but my essence is the same as someone with normal sight.
    My essence as a human is no more or less than another human with bigger muscles, 20-20 vision and tremendous heroic control over his libido.

    Live with it.

    >Jeez. Why object to this so hard, y’all? You are like someone who hears the doctrine that evil does not actually exist, and refuses to understand what this actually means. It does not mean that good people don’t suffer or that evil happens to people. In the same way, my argument doesn’t mean that homosexuals should be treated inferiorly, because they imperfectly exemplify their human nature.

    It means you have not given the correct explaination of Thomism & you will be corrected.

    >First, if you disagree with the idea of degrees of being, then take it up with the Thomists here.

    There is superior vs inferior comparisons between types of essences. Human essence is superior to animal essences for example even a human essence conjoined with deficient accidents. But all human have the same essence & thus have the same degree of being regardless of different individual being having different accidents.

    You are commiting more fallacies of equivocation.

    Your argument is a bust.

    I'm sorry I stand by my original assement. DD, RS and Mr. Green have destroyed your argument.

    Them's the breaks kid.

    The watchword today my friends it dguller is wrong because he believes essence can change in the sense of becoming more or less.

    No it can only be or not be.

    I will be standing by with my copy of REAL ESSENTALISM to school dguller further.


    In spite of this failing dguller has forgotten more good thomism than any freakin Gnu here a bothered to learn.

    ReplyDelete
  97. Ben:

    Essence is immutible take it up with Aquinas & Oderberg. An essence can be destroyed and a thing can become something else & have a new essence but it's current essence remains what it is as long as it exists.

    I agree. No argument there.

    Yes your fallacy of equivocation between accidents and essence is your new pretending the incarnation is monophysite argument and it is still wrong.

    I am not talking about accidents. Take the essence of a human being to be a rational animal. All human beings by virtue of being human beings share this essence, which is identical in all of them. However, I think that you will agree that its expression in reality is not identical in all of them. For example, someone who utilizes their intellect appropriately to truly identify the good and act according to it would be closer to expressing the ideal form of a rational animal than someone who utilizes their intellect to rationalize what their appetitive wishes incline them to perform. And this, despite the fact that they share the same human essence, so that’s a non-issue. And their expression of their rational animal essence is not an accident. Without it, they would not be human at all, but something else entirely. So, your objection just misses the point.

    Sorry no, I wear glasses so I actualize the ability to see less than a person with normal sight but my essence is the same as someone with normal sight.

    Don’t you see that you are actually agreeing with me? Two people can have the same essence, but actualize it to different degrees, and the more one person actualizes their essence, the more perfect, and good, and real they are as an exemplification of their essence, because of the identical referents of the transcendentals. Or, are you saying that the transcendentals are not coextensive? That if X is more good, then it is also not more perfect? That if X is more good, then it is not more actual? Wow. Are you ready to throw away most Thomist metaphysics for this small point?

    My essence as a human is no more or less than another human with bigger muscles, 20-20 vision and tremendous heroic control over his libido.

    Your essence is the same, but your expression and actualization of your essence is different. Essence, same. Expression of essence, different. Essence, same. Expression of essence, different. Essence, same. Expression of essence, different. Got it?

    There is superior vs inferior comparisons between types of essences. Human essence is superior to animal essences for example even a human essence conjoined with deficient accidents. But all human have the same essence & thus have the same degree of being regardless of different individual being having different accidents.

    I mean, this is pretty simple, I think. Take two triangles. T1 is drawn with straight lines and with internal angles adding up to 180 degrees, and T2 is drawn with wavy and crooked lines, and with internal angles adding up to 150 degrees. Which is a better triangle? I think that we will agree that T1 is a better triangle than T2, because it actualizes its triangle nature better than T2 does. In other words, it better conforms to what a triangle is supposed to be, by definition, or by essence. They are both triangles! It is only that T1 is a good triangle and T2 is a bad triangle.

    If you plug in doctrine of transcendentals, then the more good X is as an example of A, the more true X is as an example of A, and the more actually real X is as an example of A. So, the more good T1 is as an example of triangularity, the more true T1 is as an example of triangularity, and the more actually real T1 is as an example of triangularity.

    Would you disagree with any of this? As Feser writes: “something has being as the kind of thing it is precisely to the extent that it is a true instance of that kind, as defined by the universal essence existing in the intellect” (Aquinas, p. 34).

    ReplyDelete
  98. Ben:

    And all of this assumes that these things being compared have the same essence, but only differ in how they actualize their identical essences in different ways. You keep thinking I disagree with the former, which is manifestly untrue, and I keep trying to redirect you to the latter, which when combined with the transcendentals, nicely makes my point, I think.

    The watchword today my friends it dguller is wrong because he believes essence can change in the sense of becoming more or less.

    Find a single quote of mine in the above thread where I even hinted at such a thing. If you can’t, then address my actual points rather than this straw man.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Dguller,

    I actually see merit in your post of August 10, 2012 1:12 AM. You say:

    And that maybe you need to take into account the totality of a human being, and that it might still be possible for someone to have actualize their highest good even though some lower natural inclinations are subverted.

    This seems clearly in line with Christian orthodoxy.

    that just because someone fails to actualize a potential final end, as long as it is a lower-level one, and they maximally exert themselves to actualize their higher final ends, then we have no business judging them as inferior or defective.

    Sure, except with respect to the acts which frustrate that actualization, which is the very basis for preferring heterosexual married couples over homosexual couples in adoption. It has nothing to do with judging the whole humanity of a person; it's limited to consideration of the relevant act.

    Would you pause before selling a gun to a repeatedly convicted felon?

    I get what you're saying, largely, but I fail to see how it follows that we should not point out moral failings when we recognize them, while keeping in mind that they exist in all of us in a myriad of ways.

    ReplyDelete
  100. Ben:

    Here’s another way to look at it.

    A thing’s nature or essence is necessarily related to its final cause, which is the actual reality that thing is attempting to actualize. That is formal causes make no sense without final causes.

    Take the nature of an acorn as having the final end of becoming an oak. While as an acorn, this outcome remains as a tendency, which necessarily means that it is a potentiality within the acorn to eventually become actualized at some point in the future, assuming a natural progression of events. An acorn that receives adequate nutrition from its environment, and is steadily developing into an oak tree is a better acorn than one that receives inadequate nutrition, and remains stagnant on the forest floor. Why is it better? Because it is actualizing its final end of becoming an oak tree better than the other acorn. They both have the same essence, but the former is actualizing it better than the latter, and thus can be considered a more good, more perfect, more true, and more real acorn, by virtue of the interconvertibility of the transcendentals, which include true, good, and real.

    So, the essence remains the same throughout the development of the acorn, but the degree to which it is actualized towards the attainment of its final end of becoming an oak tree differs between the two acorns. They are still both acorns, but one is better and another is worse, and this is to be judged solely by virtue of the degree to which its final end is actualized.

    Same thing with human beings, although you have to add a moral component to our actualization in that we have intellects to identify the good and wills to follow the intellect’s judgment regarding what we should do.

    You can dislike this conclusion. You can even be appalled by it. But you cannot deny that it follows from Thomist principles. Just saying that I am saying that a thing’s essence can change – I am not – or that I am only focusing upon accidental and not essential properties – I am not – or that I am just a lowlife piece of shit – I am not – are all non-sequiters, because none of them are true positions held by myself.

    More useful, would be to pinpoint where in my analysis of Thomist metaphysics I have gone wrong. Am I wrong about the interconvertibility of the transcendentals? Am I wrong that if X actualizes more aspects of its essence E and Y actualizes less aspects of its essence E, then it makes sense to say that X is more real than Y with respect to being an actual instance in reality of something exemplifying E? And if I cannot use degree of being here, and being is essentially an all-or-nothing phenomenon, then doesn’t that mean that we are right back to Parmenides’ paradoxes? And doesn’t that undermine the interconvertibility of the transcendentals? After all, there are degrees of goodness and truth in terms of how well something corresponds to an ideal, and if there are degrees of goodness and truth, then there must be degrees of being, as well, because “good”, “true” and “being” all have the same reference. If one is increased, then the others must also be increased. Am I wrong in that there are better and worse instantiations of a common nature or essence? Am I wrong that something that is close to achieving its final end is better than something that is far from achieving its final end?

    Help me out here.

    ReplyDelete
  101. Josh:

    This seems clearly in line with Christian orthodoxy.

    Great. I think things are a little more messy than this, but we can agree here.

    Sure, except with respect to the acts which frustrate that actualization, which is the very basis for preferring heterosexual married couples over homosexual couples in adoption. It has nothing to do with judging the whole humanity of a person; it's limited to consideration of the relevant act.

    What does one’s sexual preference have to do with adequacy of being a good parent? Having children is different from raising children, and the skills appropriate to the former and not necessarily the same as the skills appropriate to the latter. So, if they are distinct, then why not just focus upon what traits, behaviors and skills are most conducive to being a good parent, and if a homosexual couple has those qualifications, then let them adopt?

    Would you pause before selling a gun to a repeatedly convicted felon?

    It depends upon what they were convicted of. Fraud? Sure, they can have a gun. Perjury, sure. Assault? Nope. Armed robbery? Nope. So, just saying that they are a felon is not necessarily relevant to that decision. Details matter.

    I get what you're saying, largely, but I fail to see how it follows that we should not point out moral failings when we recognize them, while keeping in mind that they exist in all of us in a myriad of ways.

    I wouldn’t have a problem with such an egalitarian position, actually, but when it involves discrimination that prohibits certain activities on the basis of singling out a particular group of people whose problem is supposed to be no different from what we all face, then none of us be permitted to engage in those activities. The reality is that these moral failings are used to justify exclusion in marriage, in adoption, and so on, which is a bit more than just pointing out their moral failings. It is following up with restrictions and boundaries that other people simply do not face.

    And yes, I do agree with the need for some boundaries, when justified. For example, a pedophile who has acted upon his urges and harmed a child, or children, and is simply unresponsive to treatment, should be incarcerated, or at least, have their freedoms severely curtailed to protect innocent children. In that case, there is a direct causal link between that behavior and both emotional and physical damage to an innocent. However, I don’t think the same is the case with homosexuality. What is the emotional and physical harm done by homosexuals, and only homosexuals that justifies the restrictions placed upon them? I sure as hell don’t know.

    ReplyDelete
  102. Josh:

    Oh, and just to comment on an earlier comment of yours that I missed in the whole “fuck you” situation:

    Its nature depends upon what we define its nature to be, unlike hydrogen, whose nature is what it is independent of our needs or wishes may be.

    I mean, a realist of the A-T bent should honestly just read that sentence and stop, realize that he can go no further arguing the finer points deriving from such a position, and move on. Statements of this form are/must be true "agree to disagree" propositions between Idealists and Realists.


    I hope that you will agree that there is difference between discovering the nature of hydrogen, which does not depend upon human agreement for its sustenance, and discovering the nature of chess, which does depend upon human agreement for its sustenance. In other words, even if there were no human beings, hydrogen would still have the nature it does. However, if there were no human beings to decide what the rules of chess were, there would be no such thing as chess at all.

    Sure, chess, like all games, has to take into consideration human nature, but it is not a necessary and metaphysical consequence of human nature. I was trying to say that marriage is like chess, i.e. a human activity that is defined by human beings with the intention of achieving a particular goal, or maybe multiple goals, and that since it depends upon our collective agreement for its significance, it can be revised, if other, and maybe better, ways had been found to meet those goals.

    ReplyDelete
  103. @dguller

    >I am not talking about accidents. Take the essence of a human being to be a rational animal.

    Which a fertilized human Ovum is in spite of Him/Her being only one cell with no brain to speak of or the actualized property of intellect. A human being in their substancial seed form is still a human being.

    You are talking about accidents or properties. I suspect you have been studing God so long you are confusing HIM with human beings. God's Essence, Being and Accidents/Properties are totally identical while in humans these three things are distinct.

    That is your fallacy. Let's see if you prove me right?


    >All human beings by virtue of being human beings share this essence, which is identical in all of them. However, I think that you will agree that its expression in reality is not identical in all of them.

    They have different degrees in their individual properties. Some have a better eye sight then moi. Some gay men have a strong heroic resistence to temptations of the flesh in regards to other men than moi has toward the ladies. Some are better built muscle wise & better looking then moi. (Yes some people are better looking then me. Shocking but there you have it).

    >For example, someone who utilizes their intellect appropriately to truly identify the good and act according to it would be closer to expressing the ideal form of a rational animal than someone who utilizes their intellect to rationalize what their appetitive wishes incline them to perform. And this, despite the fact that they share the same human essence, so that’s a non-issue. And their expression of their rational animal essence is not an accident. Without it, they would not be human at all, but something else entirely. So, your objection just misses the point.

    Rather I think you mispoke by not using the correct termonology. You are often real quick to try to find the fatal flaw you sometimes never stop to consisder wuither or not the flaw you think you found is based on faulty assumptions on your part(like thinking the incarnation entails mixing the two natures of Christ which is impossible).


    >Don’t you see that you are actually agreeing with me? Two people can have the same essence, but actualize it to different degrees,

    No I don't agree you are equivocating here. My essence is not less actualized then a person with 20-20 vision rather his property of eyesight is more actualized. Our essences are both actualized the same as human.

    So this is further proof to me you are confusing accidents/properties with essence.

    The Almighty's Properties & essence are identical. As His Creatures our essence and properties/acciedents are not.

    Sorry them's the breaks my son.

    ReplyDelete
  104. >and the more one person actualizes their essence, the more perfect, and good, and real they are as an exemplification of their essence, because of the identical referents of the transcendentals. Or, are you saying that the transcendentals are not coextensive? That if X is more good, then it is also not more perfect? That if X is more good, then it is not more actual? Wow. Are you ready to throw away most Thomist metaphysics for this small point?

    Aquinas said a small error can leads to larger ones. Your prove him right here with your confusing of properties with essence.

    >Your essence is the same, but your expression and actualization of your essence is different.

    That is a contradiction. My essence is the same yet different. It's either one or the other. No my essence is the same my properties are compared to other more or less then the properties of other. Our essence as humans are the same.

    >Essence, same. Expression of essence, different. Essence, same. Expression of essence, different. Essence, same. Expression of essence, different. Got it?

    You are backpeddling because you sense I am right. The only actualizing of essence is the actualizing of essental properties that cause it to be vs not to be. I am an animal with a rational nature/soul made in the divine image. In having this essental property my human essence is actualized. This happened when James III sperm fertalized Rita's egg. Then BAM!!!! James IV Son of James was actualized a human essence(you may all cheer now loudly!).

    If my other properties that flow from my nature are greater or lesser than others with a human essence that has nothing to do with my essence being actual or not in degree in comparison to others.

    Which is why Thomism is the philosophy of equality. In spite of there being people who are smarter and prettier then moi if you can believe it.

    Let us continue.

    ReplyDelete
  105. All the rest doesn't matter for me because you say:

    It depends upon what they were convicted of.

    Which is precisely the point. A Catholic adoption agency has an ideal family, and unions representing less than the ideal must be treated as such, despite the other worthwhile characteristics. They might prefer a homosexual family to no family, or a family of abusive parents.

    A homosexual couple is convicted of an unrepentant flouting of natural law, and that can't be swept under the rug so that they can be seen as equivalent to a healthy man-woman union in marriage. Sorry. Doesn't mean I see them as subhuman.

    You wouldn't give a gun to an unrepentant habitual armed robber; and I wouldn't give a preference to a homosexual couple over a healthy heterosexual couple when it comes to adoption. And this position doesn't rest on utilitarian concerns of harm, but the state of the person with respect to the act.

    ReplyDelete
  106. Chess depends for its reality on the mind (as a being of reason), marriage depends on our discovery of an aspect of reality (our natures and ends), just as hydrogen does. I don't conflate real being and logical being.

    ReplyDelete
  107. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  108. Sure, chess, like all games, has to take into consideration human nature, but it is not a necessary and metaphysical consequence of human nature.

    See, we believe precisely the opposite of this negation with respect to marriage. The comparison doesn't hold. That's why I said people should just stop and agree to disagree if they can't come to terms on that point.

    ReplyDelete
  109. >I mean, this is pretty simple, I think. Take two triangles. T1 is drawn with straight lines and with internal angles adding up to 180 degrees, and T2 is drawn with wavy and crooked lines, and with internal angles adding up to 150 degrees. Which is a better triangle?

    Which has the better properties? That is the question. There essence of being a triangle is the same.

    >I think that we will agree that T1 is a better triangle than T2, because it actualizes its triangle nature better than T2 does.

    It has the better property of having a straight line but as long as it has three sides & three points it has the essential property of being a triangle.

    >In other words, it better conforms to what a triangle is supposed to be, by definition, or by essence. They are both triangles! It is only that T1 is a good triangle and T2 is a bad triangle.

    No is has the better property. The essences of the two triangles are the same.

    More later.

    Like said citing Aquinas. It's always the small error.

    Essence is actualized to be vs not to be. Essence is not the same as properties or accidents. Essential properties make an essence.

    Thus gay people do not have a less actualized essence than a straight person. At worst they have a defective property or lack the property for having an orderly passion.

    That is the way it is.

    More much later. I will let others continue.

    ReplyDelete
  110. >A thing’s nature or essence is necessarily related to its final cause, which is the actual reality that thing is attempting to actualize. That is formal causes make no sense without final causes.

    When you stop equivocating between essence vs properties then you can get at the core truth you are now begining to recognize & abandon your erroneous statement about gays having an inferior or "less actualized" essence to straights.

    ReplyDelete
  111. Ben:

    Which a fertilized human Ovum is in spite of Him/Her being only one cell with no brain to speak of or the actualized property of intellect. A human being in their substancial seed form is still a human being.

    A grown human being is a better actualization of human nature than a fertilized ovum. A human being with their reasoning faculties intact is a better example of a human being than a human being with their reasoning faculties damaged in some way. They are both human beings, but they are different exemplifications of their underlying human nature.

    You can certainly claim that all human beings are exactly the same in that they share a common human nature, and that common human nature has an underlying teleology that directs it towards the actualization of certain potentialities. However, you cannot ignore that an essential part of that account is that in addition to the directedness towards the actualization of a final end is the actualization of the final end. When the final end is actualized, the being in question is perfected, because perfection is associated with being, because of the interconvertibility of the transcendentals.

    Rather I think you mispoke by not using the correct termonology. You are often real quick to try to find the fatal flaw you sometimes never stop to consisder wuither or not the flaw you think you found is based on faulty assumptions on your part(like thinking the incarnation entails mixing the two natures of Christ which is impossible).

    You didn’t answer anything I wrote in the passage you commented upon. Where exactly did I misspeak? How did I misuse the terminology? What are my faulty assumptions?

    No I don't agree you are equivocating here. My essence is not less actualized then a person with 20-20 vision rather his property of eyesight is more actualized. Our essences are both actualized the same as human.

    Look, essence and existence are interconnected, neither occurring without the other. So, if there is a thing that exists, then it necessarily exists with a specific essence that defines what it is. However, that essence also points beyond that actually existing being towards a potential future outcome that is supposed to be its final cause. It is more than what is just actual, but rather is potential. As Aquinas writes: “existence stands to essence as act to potentiality”. Essence, although actually present in a thing, points beyond what is happening to what is supposed to happen in the future. Once that goal has been actualized, then the essence has been fully actualized. It seems that you are ignoring the role of final causality with respect to essence and nature.

    That is a contradiction. My essence is the same yet different. It's either one or the other. No my essence is the same my properties are compared to other more or less then the properties of other. Our essence as humans are the same.

    Great. Then there is no difference between a well drawn triangle and a poorly drawn triangle. After all, they are both triangles! No need for any talk of degrees of goodness, degrees of truth, and degrees of being. Hell, no need for any judgment whatsoever about whether X is a good instance of A or a bad instance of A. All that matters is that X is an A. Is that really the position you want to take? How does one determine whether X is a good A then, on your account, if not based upon how well X actualizes it’s A nature?

    ReplyDelete
  112. Ben:

    The only actualizing of essence is the actualizing of essental properties that cause it to be vs not to be. I am an animal with a rational nature/soul made in the divine image. In having this essental property my human essence is actualized. This happened when James III sperm fertalized Rita's egg. Then BAM!!!! James IV Son of James was actualized a human essence(you may all cheer now loudly!).

    How do you actualize essential properties that are not actually present? A fertilized egg is not a rational being capable of abstracting essences from material particulars, because it lacks the apparatus in order to do so, but it could become a rational being once that apparatus is in place following a series of developmental steps. According to you, its rationality is fully present and actualized at the moment of birth, which I think is absurd. It is more reasonable to say that the potential is present for it to become rational if allowed to follow a natural course. If you want to eliminate the validity of potential being in your zeal to make a minor point, then that is certainly your right, but you know the paradoxes you are left with without it. In fact, your account would also do away with final causes, which are intrinsically potential until they are actualized. And without final causes, you lose essence and formal causes, which leaves you with absurdity.

    If my other properties that flow from my nature are greater or lesser than others with a human essence that has nothing to do with my essence being actual or not in degree in comparison to others.

    Of course it does if those properties are essential properties. How is a fertilized egg rational? Remember, there is potentiality involved in having an essence. It must be totally present in actual reality at the moment that matter is in-formed by an essence.

    ReplyDelete
  113. Your essence is the same, but your expression and actualization of your essence is different. Essence, same. Expression of essence, different. Essence, same. Expression of essence, different. Essence, same. Expression of essence, different. Got it?

    Sure.

    Well, actually, and more precisely, it has already long been had by some.

    That's partly why Crude lit into you, to shake up what had the appearance of being an intractable myopia, and thus, hopefully, to bring you around. Glad to see his efforts were not entirely wasted.

    BTW, Ben's example re poor seeing is a good one.

    ...the higher the angel is, by so much the fewer species will he be able to apprehend the whole mass of intelligible objects. Therefore his forms must be more universal; each one of them, as it were, extending to more things. An example of this can in some measure be observed in ourselves. For some people there are who cannot grasp an intelligible truth, unless it be explained to them in every part and detail; this comes of their weakness of intellect: while there are others of stronger intellect, who can grasp many things from few. ST I, Q 55, A 3

    One would hope that you can sort this out without devouring yourself by way of your earlier 'impeccable' logic.

    ReplyDelete
  114. Josh:

    Which is precisely the point. A Catholic adoption agency has an ideal family, and unions representing less than the ideal must be treated as such, despite the other worthwhile characteristics. They might prefer a homosexual family to no family, or a family of abusive parents.

    Do they actually approve of homosexual families adopting a child from a Catholic adoption agency? Look at what happened in Illinois in 2011. Bishops preferred to stop offering healthcare services and other supportive services rather than comply with a law that prohibited them from banning homosexuals from adopting children. Reality does not seem to conform to your version.

    Chess depends for its reality on the mind (as a being of reason), marriage depends on our discovery of an aspect of reality (our natures and ends), just as hydrogen does. I don't conflate real being and logical being.

    Marriage is an organized pattern of behavior with agreed-upon rules and regulations, much like chess. Perhaps if there were a continuum with chess on one end, hydrogen atoms and mountains on the other, then marriage would be somewhere in between. I just don’t see it as the same as a hydrogen atom, i.e. having an independent and metaphysical nature.

    ReplyDelete
  115. With you on this, Mark Duch:

    I'm just going to say this: in an age when an entire voting bloc finds the comedic rhetorical traps of the Daily Show and Colbert Report to be perfectly fine substitutes for actual arguments based upon reason and logic, it is important to be able to speak their language by putting in some "oh snap" moments every now and then. The atheism that must be combatted in the present age is not one of reason and high-minded discourse, but one of snarky presumption and arrogant combox sound-bytes. So, excellent work with the tone of TLS, Dr. Feser. When the aforementioned folks start whining for civility of tone in spite of their track record for lack of the same, you know you've hit a nerve.

    ReplyDelete
  116. >A grown human being is a better actualization of human nature than a fertilized ovum.

    Rather he has more developed properties. The essence is the same and equal.

    >As Aquinas writes: “existence stands to essence as act to potentiality”.

    Which does not help you since when a potency is actualized it ceases to be as a potency. As the properties of an essence are actualized it gains more developed properties and is made better than when those properties where not actualized. But the essence from which the properties flow is unchanged as an essence.

    >Essence, although actually present in a thing, points beyond what is happening to what is supposed to happen in the future.

    Yes it points to more possibly actualized properties but the essence remains the same. Created Essences are immutable in that they don't change. They either are or are not.

    >Once that goal has been actualized, then the essence has been fully actualized.

    Wrong the properties of the essence are actualized.

    >It seems that you are ignoring the role of final causality with respect to essence and nature.

    Not at all you are confusing essence with properties/accidents.

    >How do you actualize essential properties that are not actually present? A fertilized egg is not a rational being capable of abstracting essences from material particulars,

    This is a tangent. We will deal with abortion and human life begining at conception at a later date.

    As long as you insist on conflating essence with properties we will keep taking past each other.

    Now I have work to do.

    Anyone else help brother dguller out?

    ReplyDelete
  117. >Then there is no difference between a well drawn triangle and a poorly drawn triangle. After all, they are both triangles!

    Yes one has better properties than the other but both have equal essence or neither would be triangles.

    Sure it's better to not have Autism or a disorder passion that moves you to want to have sex with members of your own gender. But human essence in both are the same, equal and unchanged.

    ReplyDelete
  118. Marriage is an organized pattern of behavior with agreed-upon rules and regulations, much like chess.

    Certainly, and on the one hand (Chess), its ontology rests solely in those conventions, and on the other hand (marriage), it does not. Like I say, beyond this point, there's no sense arguing.

    Do they actually approve of homosexual families adopting a child from a Catholic adoption agency? Look at what happened in Illinois in 2011. Bishops preferred to stop offering healthcare services and other supportive services rather than comply with a law that prohibited them from banning homosexuals from adopting children. Reality does not seem to conform to your version.

    Note there that the state was attempting to compel the church into abandoning the very discrimination I was referring to; preference according to an ideal. I see no inconsistency here.

    The executive of Catholic Charities said:

    ROBERT GILLIGAN (Executive Director, Catholic Conference of Illinois): We will continue to say that children are best raised in the situation where there is a loving home and a mother and a father, and that will be true as long as we’re able here to articulate it. It’s the truth, and that’s what the church is about is trying to speak the truth to these very sometimes controversial social questions.

    So, I'll retract my statement insofar as I said they would have to allow adoption for what is less than the ideal, while still maintaining that one could still hold up a qualitative difference between a homosexual couple and an abusive heterosexual one.

    ReplyDelete
  119. Dguller,

    Of course, one shouldn't hold their breath waiting for the Catholic Church to accept Utilitarianism in forming doctrine. That's one of the reasons why it's still around, and why 'chronologically snobbery' is constantly leveled at it.

    ReplyDelete
  120. Actualizing more properties found in your human essence doesn't make you have a better human nature.

    Latin Rite Priests(who are not married Protestant Minister Converts) and or celibate religious do not actualize their property to reproduce or have even lawful married sex. That does not mean they have a less actualized human nature or essence. Rather actualizing properties toward their final goals and not in a disordered way is good in terms of their final destiny.

    But their essence remains the same.

    Now I must work.

    ReplyDelete
  121. Ben:

    Which has the better properties? That is the question. There essence of being a triangle is the same.

    But those are essential properties that are part of the definition of a triangle. “Better properties” are those that conform more to the definition of a triangle. A particular triangle has the essence of a triangle, but it may be a good or a bad triangle, because of how much it actualizes the characteristics of an ideal and perfect triangle, which is what the essence is supposed to represent.

    It has the better property of having a straight line but as long as it has three sides & three points it has the essential property of being a triangle.

    We are not disagreeing about whether all triangles have the same essence of triangularity. We are disagreeing about what counts as a good or bad triangle, given the fact that they all have the same essence. Since they have the same essence, the essence cannot be what counts as what makes a triangle good or bad, because it is the same in both good and bad triangles. So, what accounts for the difference? I think you’ll agree that counts is how well that particular triangle conforms to the ideal definition of a triangle contained within the essence of that particular triangle. That is the final cause, which is potential until it is actualized, and the more it is actualized, the better a triangle it is.

    Essence is actualized to be vs not to be. Essence is not the same as properties or accidents. Essential properties make an essence.

    Here’s how I see it.

    You have an essence E, which is defined by the following essential properties: A, B and C.

    Not every instance of E will have actualized A, B and C. Some will only actualize A. For example, a human being may have their rational capacities damaged by a brain tumor, but they still have the essence of being a rational animal. So, actualizing all essential properties is not essential to essence. In that case, what you have is not the actualization of an essence, but the potential to actualize an essence in the absence of obstructions and impediments.

    So, to have an essence E is either (a) to have actualized essential properties A, B, and/or C or (b) to have the potential to actualize essential properties A, B and/or C by natural development. I would probably add that a thing with essence E should actualize at least one essential property, but I have to think and read more about this.

    Say, you have X and Y who both share essence E. X has actualized A, B and C. Y has actualized A, and has been obstructed from actualizing B and C. Since X has actualized more essential properties than Y, it is more good and more true an actual manifestation of what a being with E is supposed to be like in reality. That is because in reality, and not in an intellectual abstraction of an essence, there are particular entities that more or less conform to the ideals set down by their essences. So, yes, the blueprint is fully actualized as soon as an individual being with that blueprint as a nature begins to exist, but how well that blueprint is actually followed is what I am focusing upon, and it makes sense to me that it is followed better by some beings than others, even though they all share the same blueprint.

    ReplyDelete
  122. Ben:

    Actualizing more properties found in your human essence doesn't make you have a better human nature.

    Then it makes you a better … what? Remember, even Aquinas said that perfection is coextensive with being and goodness, and thus the more real something is, which corresponds to more actuality and less potentiality, the more good and true that thing is as an exemplar of its essence. But according to you, none of this is possible, because if X and Y both share the same essence E, then they have actualized their essence in exactly the same way by virtue of having the same essence, despite the fact that X and Y differ in their actualization of different essential properties.

    ReplyDelete
  123. Ben:

    Which does not help you since when a potency is actualized it ceases to be as a potency. As the properties of an essence are actualized it gains more developed properties and is made better than when those properties where not actualized. But the essence from which the properties flow is unchanged as an essence.

    It does help me, as you’ve conceded my point. You agree that actualized properties are better than potential properties, which means that a being with more actualized properties, particular those that are definitive of its essence, the more good, the more true, and the more real that being is. The only remaining issue is whether you can say that such a being is a good instantiation of its essence. You seem to deny that this is legitimate, and I think it is legitimate.

    Also, I think that we need to differentiate between potential being and actual being. A thing’s essence is necessarily related to its final end. If the final end if present, then it is actual, and there is no longer any potential with regards to that being’s nature. However, if the final end is not present, then it is potential, and that being is then directed to actualize that end. So, you can say that an essence is actualized by virtue of directing a particular being towards the actualization of its final end. In that sense, essence is both actual and potential. It is actually present in all beings with the same essence, but not all beings will exemplify the ideal contained in the essence, and the more a being actualizes the ideal, the more good, the more true, and the more real it is.

    Yes it points to more possibly actualized properties but the essence remains the same. Created Essences are immutable in that they don't change. They either are or are not.

    Let me ask you this. Say that an essence E points towards the actualization of a final end F. All beings that have E also share F as what they are directed towards actualizing unless interfered with. Once a being has attained F, then does the essence still point towards the actualization of F? It seems like it shouldn’t, because F has been actualized, and so what exactly is E pointing towards? It is not pointing towards anything, because F is actual, and pointing towards transcends actual reality and directs it towards a potential outcome. That is what teleology is all about, i.e. what ought to be the case, which is potentiality, and which is distinct from what is the case, which is actuality. As you mentioned, once potentiality becomes actuality, there is no longer any potentiality, and without potentiality, you have no teleology, and no final cause, and no essence.

    Wrong the properties of the essence are actualized.

    Fine, the essential properties are actualized. Great. Would you say that if X and Y both share a common essence E, but that X actualizes more essential properties than Y, then X is more good, more true, and more real, than Y with respect to the exemplification of E, which is its final cause? And if you would you also say that X is a better example of E than Y?

    ReplyDelete
  124. @dguller

    --"Again, why wouldn’t you say that a person that actualizes their human nature more than another person could not be considered more real? Are you saying that more actual being could not be considered more real? How does that make sense?"

    I think this argument that you are putting forth relies moreso on a Hegelian approach. For Hegel, the most real is The Absolute, while other entities are less than real. They actualize themselves through the dialectic process in virtue of coming "closer" to The Absolute. In addition, he held that humans are more real than other animals because they are self-determining. The same goes for ethical societies if I'm not mistaken. It's an interesting hierarchy indeed but maybe not one that jives perfectly with Thomism? Maybe that's why people are objecting so much?

    ReplyDelete
  125. >Then it makes you a better … what?

    Whatever the final goal is of the property you actualize.

    For example. The married Eastern Rite Catholic Priest who lives seven blocks from my house and myself are better propagators of the human species (because we have actualized our potential to each marry a woman & have children with said women) then the celibate Latin Priest & or the celibate Eastern Priest that helps Fr. Vasil on the weekends in that regard.

    But of course our human essences are the same and unchanged.

    >But according to you, none of this is possible, because if X and Y both share the same essence E, then they have actualized their essence in exactly the same way by virtue of having the same essence, despite the fact that X and Y differ in their actualization of different essential properties.

    Not all properties an essence has are essential ones. Latin Priest who are both celibate and due to a birth defect in biology are sterile still have the essential properties to qualify as having a human essence (a rational soul united to an animal nature).

    You are equivocating now between the actual potential properties found in a specific nature vs the essential properties that give it that nature.

    I really must work and not give into the temptation to answer you till later.

    ReplyDelete
  126. August 9, 2012 2:23 PM
    Josh said...

    Just wanted to dip in (I'm not plunging into this mess); but something Dguller said:

    'Its nature depends upon what we define its nature to be, unlike hydrogen, whose nature is what it is independent of our needs or wishes may be.'

    I mean, a realist of the A-T bent should honestly just read that sentence and stop, realize that he can go no further arguing the finer points deriving from such a position, and move on. Statements of this form are/must be true "agree to disagree" propositions between Idealists and Realists."


    Yes, reading over what had me perplexed yesterday, I now see that I was not the only one who was puzzled.

    One of the problems might be that in arguing a "topic" like this there can be a great deal of confusion as to what is actually being argued.

    The natural impulse of the unsympathetic reader to respond, "Yeah, but ..." with the "but" pointing to or shifting to some entirely different category or frame of reference doesn't make it any better: Even if we are all by now accustomed to seeing disputes over some proposition quickly degenerate from a dispute over a supposed matter of fact, into some kind of pseudo-epistemological argument.

    Although I certainly referenced natural law reasoning, which forms a distinct part of the American legal tradition - if in noticeable tension with common and statutory law - I was not arguing A-T metaphysics.

    Nor was I prepared to shift from establishing and defending the internal logic of narrow line I had taken, to arguing over the social construction of reality, or ruminating over how it is that "collectives" create reality, validate a concept, or what it means to imagine that they do so, or how one knows for sure when a "collective" has done so ... ad infinitum, ad nauseam ...

    So, if I dragged this discussion close to the cliff's edge, I certainly didn't mean to do so, and regret seeing the hard feelings that were subsequently aroused.


    Now, after having oiled the waters I'm going to throw a bomb on them.

    I'm going to point to the 800 lb gorilla shadowing our new age, by reminding everyone of the commonplace truth that Aristotelian metaphysics [we can ignore the Stoics and Roman legalists for the sake of convenience I think] along with late Judaism, and Christianity as it grew from it, are responsible for *our* present universalist notion of human nature ... the concept of *one humanity* as transcendentally meaningful (in a question conditioning sense). I'll do this while simultaneously noting that the left-progressive project of deconstructing and "liberating" itself [or its appetites and urges] from the former, while somehow preserving the intellectual persuasiveness of the latter, is doomed to fail; and that the progressives, know it full well. Some, have already shrugged their shoulders and moved on to the point of embracing emotion, indoctrination, and politically directive herd culling, in place of reason.

    But for those who still see a role for reason in arbitrating "moral questions", they not only must become post modern in their morality, but as a result of their nominalism, become post-human as well; as they cast about for some other, supposedly broader ground for morality than that of a human nature which is thought either not to exist, or is granted no special ontological significance insofar as its existence is granted.

    They are forced to seek some other ground. Which is what some number of them are currently frantically scrambling to establish with their various trans-humanism schemes.

    They fully realize the need to get something in place before the majority of the crowd wakes up.

    But what, and in the name of, and for the sake of what?

    ReplyDelete
  127. Anonymous:

    I think this argument that you are putting forth relies moreso on a Hegelian approach. For Hegel, the most real is The Absolute, while other entities are less than real. They actualize themselves through the dialectic process in virtue of coming "closer" to The Absolute. In addition, he held that humans are more real than other animals because they are self-determining. The same goes for ethical societies if I'm not mistaken. It's an interesting hierarchy indeed but maybe not one that jives perfectly with Thomism? Maybe that's why people are objecting so much?

    I really don’t know why people are objecting so much. I think that there is a focus upon the each existing thing having an essence, which consists of a number of essential properties that define that essence. Without those properties, you have no essence, at least as far as I can tell. That would be like having a definition without concepts or terms, which just makes no sense.

    I think that it makes sense to actualize the essential properties, and by doing so, one is actualizing the ideal set forth within the essence. Sure, the essence, as the underlying blueprint, remains the same, but the more that reality conforms to the ideal blueprint, you can say that reality is more of a good instance of what the blueprint represents, which also means that it is more true, and more real, according to the transcendentals.

    But then people object that the blueprint hasn’t changed. Right, but reality has changed by actualizing the essential properties of the blueprint within a particular substance. And that means that reality and the blueprint better correspond to one another, and the more they correspond, the more good, the more true, and the more good reality is said to be. So, when I say that a thing’s essence is more actualized, I am not saying that the essence has changed, because it hasn’t, but rather the essence is better represented in reality by having beings that more conform to it by virtue of actualizing their essential properties.

    If we can all agree with this, then the next point is whether it is permissible to say that if substance X with essence E actualizes more essential properties than substance Y with essence E, then X is a better instance of E than Y, which also means that it is more good, more true, and more real with respect to the exemplification of E in reality. I think that you can meaningfully say this, but others seem to disagree.

    ReplyDelete
  128. @dguller

    --"Sure, chess, like all games, has to take into consideration human nature, but it is not a necessary and metaphysical consequence of human nature. I was trying to say that marriage is like chess, i.e. a human activity that is defined by human beings with the intention of achieving a particular goal, or maybe multiple goals, and that since it depends upon our collective agreement for its significance, it can be revised, if other, and maybe better, ways had been found to meet those goals."

    Just to see if I am understanding you correctly here... You are essentially utilizing the Aristotelian distinction between something being natural (hydrogen) and something being an artefact (marriage). Given the fact that you classify marriage as an artefact and purely in the domain of human convention, your claim is that unlike a natural thing it can be re-assessed and revised to better fit today's world, which is obviously in many respects different (in terms of dynamics, social standards, needs, priorities, technology, etc). So while heterosexual marriage for example might have been central to creating a family in the past(in the absence of modern medicine, in the vital need for procreation for children to work on farmland, as a means to create social order, etc) today's society offers many of these without necessarily requiring the traditional family at the core. Ergo, since parents can adopt or since artificial insemination is available, marriage should no longer restricted to the traditional family make-up. That's because different modes of marriage exist that given medicine, technology social interconnectedness (in respect to adoption) allow it to operate much in a similar way as a heterosexual family with a traditional make-up.

    Am I understanding your argument correctly?

    ReplyDelete
  129. Ben:

    Whatever the final goal is of the property you actualize.

    Okay, so if we have an essence E, which is defined by essential properties A, B and C, then now A, B and C each have their own teleology and final causes. Fine. Say, that X has E, and actualizes A, which means that A’s final cause is actualized, and that Y has E, and actualizes A and B, which means that both A and B have their final causes actualized. Since Y has actualized more essential properties than X, then can I say that Y better exemplifies E in reality than X, and as such is a better E than X?

    You are equivocating now between the actual potential properties found in a specific nature vs the essential properties that give it that nature.

    No, I am not. That is why I specifically mention essential properties that define an essence or nature. No equivocation. I’m being quite clear, but you are refusing to see what I mean, for some reason.

    ReplyDelete
  130. Anonymous:

    That sounds about right.

    ReplyDelete
  131. @dguller

    So many levels of wrong.

    >It does help me, as you’ve conceded my point.

    Only if you keep equivocating between essence and property which is a mistake I don't make here.

    >You agree that actualized properties are better than potential properties,

    I already said people with 20-20 see much better than moi. This is unremarkable. But their human essence & nature are the same as mine.

    Conflating Properties with essence again.

    Ah no.

    >which means that a being with more actualized properties, particular those that are definitive of its essence,

    The essence is still the same and immutable.

    >the more good, the more true, and the more real that being is.

    I am less real then a person with 20-20 vision? No I am just as real, he merely has a better seeing property than moi. Our essence and nature are the same.

    >The only remaining issue is whether you can say that such a being is a good instantiation of its essence. You seem to deny that this is legitimate, and I think it is legitimate.

    You are equivocating essential properties which make the essence with the actual potential properties might have.

    I don't have to see well to have a human essence. Humans have the potential to see it is in their essence. But it is not essential to making them human otherwise the blind wouldn't be human.

    So here are your mistakes. you equivocate between properties & essence & you equivocate between essential properties vs actual potential properties any given type of essence does have.

    ReplyDelete
  132. Ben:

    For example. The married Eastern Rite Catholic Priest who lives seven blocks from my house and myself are better propagators of the human species (because we have actualized our potential to each marry a woman & have children with said women) then the celibate Latin Priest & or the celibate Eastern Priest that helps Fr. Vasil on the weekends in that regard.

    But of course our human essences are the same and unchanged.


    I see. That was helpful, but I don’t think it helps your point. You are comparing apples and oranges. A better comparison would be between yourself and another Jack who has a child out of wedlock. Both of you are sexually active, which does not apply with the celibate Latin priest that you mentioned above. Given the fact that you and Jack are both sexually active, you would be a better exemplification of human sexual nature than Jack, because your sexual activity conforms to the essential nature of sexuality whereas Jack’s does not.

    The question is whether that makes you a better human being than Jack, specifically with regards to your choice to utilize your sexual behavior according to sexual nature. I think that you would say that it does, and I would agree, given this framework. However, the next question is whether that makes you a better human being. Although I think that you would be reluctant to make this next step, I think that you would have to. A good human being is a person who utilizes their reason appropriately, which in its practical mode involves utilizing synderesis to incorrigibly identify moral principles, and then use their conscience to apply those principles to their individual circumstances to identify the right and good course of action. Now, you have used your intellect and reason to identify the essence of sexual activity, and you chose to live according to your proper nature, which is what a good human being essentially is, particularly in their practical domain. So, you would have to say that you are better than Jack who has failed to use his intellect properly, has failed to identify the essence of sexuality, and thus has chosen a course of action against his sexual nature, without his being aware of it.

    ReplyDelete
  133. The essence of a triangle is it has three sides and three points. Those are it's essential properties to be a triangle vs not being one.

    Some triangles have the property of straighter sides compared with other triangles. But these are not essential otherwise triangles with imperfectly straight sides couldn't be triangles.

    ReplyDelete
  134. >Given the fact that you and Jack are both sexually active, you would be a better exemplification of human sexual nature than Jack, because your sexual activity conforms to the essential nature of sexuality whereas Jack’s does not.

    No I would be better at following the moral law & the goal of sex in it's moral context then him in this one instance.

    In terms of actually producing children we are equals.

    His sexual nature would be the same as moi, his human nature and essence would be the same as moi.

    Neither would be better.

    So many small errors. Well will cure you thought it may take time.

    ReplyDelete
  135. Ben:

    I already said people with 20-20 see much better than moi. This is unremarkable. But their human essence & nature are the same as mine.

    Conflating Properties with essence again.


    No, I am not.

    The blueprint is the same, but how reality corresponds to the blueprint is different in distinct individuals. There is no conflation. The essence consists of a set of necessary and sufficient essential properties that define that a thing is supposed to be. That is all an essence is. You cannot have an essence without essential properties, and even though the essence remains the same in all instantiations of it, the individual instantiations can actualize more or less essential properties in reality. Do you deny that individual substances actualize essential properties to differing degrees, which grounds our judgment of them as good and true?

    I am less real then a person with 20-20 vision? No I am just as real, he merely has a better seeing property than moi. Our essence and nature are the same.

    According to the transcendentals, yes, you are less real. Real = true = good. They all refer to the same reality. Same referent, different senses. The more one actualizes one’s essential properties definitive of one’s human nature, the more reality, the more goodness, and the more truth one has. Do you really deny this? How exactly do you understand the transcendentals, then? Why is evil privation, according to you?

    You are equivocating essential properties which make the essence with the actual potential properties might have.

    I am not. I keep talking about essential properties. Even in the paragraph that you quoted, I wrote: “a being with more actualized properties, particular those that are definitive of its essence, the more good, the more true, and the more real that being is”. See that part where I wrote “particular those that are definitive of its essence”? See it? That’s where I am talking about essential properties. Properties “that are definitive of its essence”. Honestly, are you just ignoring this?

    ReplyDelete
  136. This is the statement you made that justly pissed off Crude.

    >However, I find it ironic that you would be offended by me pointing out the fact that a particular metaphysical system necessarily looks upon your cherished friends and family as inferior examples of human beings.

    Essences and natures can't be inferior or superior. They either are or they are not.

    Properties can actualize their goals successfully to various degrees and an individual being can have more successful or better properties than another and less successful properties at same time.

    But their essence as a human being and nature and the dignity that follows from this remains the same. There is no essential difference between me and the gay dude and the dude with perfect 20-20 vision.

    No essential difference.

    ReplyDelete
  137. Given dguller's argument I think you guys should simply focus on:

    1. Whether marriage should be classified as natural vs artefact.

    2. What are the necessary essential properties of a human being.

    Once you establish those two things you will be able to have a better discussion without missing each other's point.

    ReplyDelete
  138. For example according to Bed nere:

    --"But their essence as a human being and nature and the dignity that follows from this remains the same. There is no essential difference between me and the gay dude and the dude with perfect 20-20 vision.

    No essential difference."

    Heterosexuality is not an essential property of being human. So to clarify for dguller, given that heterosexuality according to Ben is an accidental property it doesn't, in its absence, negate the human nature of a person.

    I think that's where you guys are losing each other. You need to make those two distinctions I mentioned in my previous post.

    ReplyDelete
  139. >According to the transcendentals, yes, you are less real. Real = true = good.

    In regards to vision only not essence. Accept it you are conflating essence with properties.

    You can deny it till you are blue in the face & I don't doubt you really believe you are not doing this. But you are & it is as plain as the glasses on my face.

    >They all refer to the same reality.

    Which reality? The reality of having various degrees of good vision or the reality of having the essential properties giving me a human essence?

    They are not the same and you are still equivocating.

    >Same referent, different senses. The more one actualizes one’s essential properties definitive of one’s human nature,

    Vision is not an essential property otherwise the blind would be less human. Having a Rational soul is the essential property of having a human nature.

    Get over it.

    >the more reality, the more goodness, and the more truth one has.

    But it's human essence & human nature are still the same and unchanged.

    >Do you really deny this? How exactly do you understand the transcendentals, then? Why is evil privation, according to you?

    I don't deny any of this you are misapplying it by conflating essence with properties. Essential properties with general properties found in a given nature and you are comiting the falacy of equivocation.

    It's really that simple. The small errors breed the larger ones.

    Sorry my friend.

    ReplyDelete
  140. I don't know who you are Anon but I like you already.

    Please pick a handle so as not to confuse you with the troll anons or the Gnus.

    Cheers.

    ReplyDelete
  141. Correction:

    Vision is not an essential property of a human being otherwise the blind would be non-human.

    ReplyDelete
  142. >According to the transcendentals, yes, you are less real. Real = true = good.

    Again you need to know God's properties and essence are identical but the essence and properties of humans are not.

    My human nature, the gay dude's human nature and 20-20 dude of unspecified sexual orientation human nature are equal and share the same kind and degree of essential properties that formally cause us to have human natures in the first place. We all have rational souls made in the Divine image. We have equal essences and natures.

    This will be true if the other two go to Heaven & I God forbid go to hell.

    They will just have a Infinite Property of the Gift of the Beatific Vision and realize the goal of fulfilling God's Will & I wil be the useless fuck who sets his will against this possible end.

    I will lack the beatific vision yet I will still have an equal human nature to the other two.

    BTW Pray for me a sinner I never become a living example of my own analogy. God save me and all of you.

    ReplyDelete
  143. Ben:

    Some triangles have the property of straighter sides compared with other triangles. But these are not essential otherwise triangles with imperfectly straight sides couldn't be triangles.

    I see.

    So, the essence of a triangle is not an ideal triangle, it is just what all actual triangles must actually share in common. That was not my understanding. I thought the essence of a triangle was supposed to be what all triangles are supposed to be, as the final cause of all triangles, and that some are better instantiations of that ideal triangle than others, but they are all triangles despite their differences and imperfections.

    Now I see that the essence of triangle has nothing to do with what a triangle is supposed to be, and only what all triangles must have in common, i.e. three lines intersecting at their corners. There should be no mention of the straightness of the lines, or the precision of the intersections, or the angles adding up to 180 degrees. No, those are all accidental properties of what a triangle is supposed to be.

    No I would be better at following the moral law & the goal of sex in it's moral context then him in this one instance.

    Neither would be better.

    How could you be better at something and yet neither of you actually be better than each other?

    And any comments about the paragraph after that in which I made reference to your rationality, which is essential to your human nature?

    ReplyDelete
  144. Ben:

    Essences and natures can't be inferior or superior. They either are or they are not.

    I am not talking about essences. I am talking about particular beings, which can be superior or inferior with respect to how they maximize the actualization of their essential properties, according to their underlying nature. You do understand the difference between an essence and an existing being, right? Focus upon the latter, and you’ll see my point.

    Properties can actualize their goals successfully to various degrees and an individual being can have more successful or better properties than another and less successful properties at same time.

    Thank God.

    But their essence as a human being and nature and the dignity that follows from this remains the same. There is no essential difference between me and the gay dude and the dude with perfect 20-20 vision.

    Again, stop focusing upon the possession of an essence. We agree that it is the same and unchanging between the individuals that share an essence. What I am trying to focus you upon is how well those particular individuals actualize the essential properties of their nature, and whether this is relevant at all with regard to judging their degree of goodness. I think that this is important, and you seem to think it is irrelevant. In other words, if you had a choice of saving four embryos or a five year old boy, then you would save the four embryos, because there are more people saved that way. After all, they all share the same essence, and that is the only thing that matters, right?

    Which reality? The reality of having various degrees of good vision or the reality of having the essential properties giving me a human essence?

    The essential properties. That is all I am talking about.

    My human nature, the gay dude's human nature and 20-20 dude of unspecified sexual orientation human nature are equal and share the same kind and degree of essential properties that formally cause us to have human natures in the first place. We all have rational souls made in the Divine image. We have equal essences and natures.

    But do you all actualize your essential properties to an identical extent? And if you do not, then does that impact the amount of goodness that you each possess, especially given the transcendental doctrine, because those of you who have actualized more essential properties would be, by definition, more real, because you have more actual reality present by virtue of more actualized essential properties, and since being = goodness = truth, then those with more reality, are also more good, and more true to ideal of humanity.

    ReplyDelete
  145. Anonymous:

    What are the necessary essential properties of a human being.

    Thanks.

    I actually need some help with this. I understand that a human being’s essence is being a rational animal, which involves a unified combination of a rational, appetitive and vegetative soul.

    My question is whether human essence should focus primarily upon the rational part, and minimize the appetitive and vegetative parts, or whether all the essential properties associated with the three kinds of souls should be actualized. In other words, if two human beings had an equal actualization of their essential rational properties, but differed in that one is in a wheelchair and another is ambulatory, then would one be more good than another qua human being, because part of human nature is an appetitive soul, which includes locomotion?

    Or, do you say that they are the same, because the only thing that matters is the amount of essential rational properties that is actualized, which means that one could be an exemplary instantiation of human nature, even if one fails to actualize some of one’s essential appetitive and vegetative properties?

    Or, do you say that if one is maximally actualizing one’s essential rational properties, then that necessarily means that one is intentionally directing the will towards the actualization of one’s essential appetitive and vegetative properties, because the will is directed towards what the intellect identifies as the good, and that necessarily involves an understanding of the nature of our appetitive and vegetative aspects, and thus not choosing anything that might thwart the actualization of their essential properties?

    ReplyDelete
  146. dguller,

    "You have an essence E, which is defined by the following essential properties: A, B and C. Not every instance of E will have actualized A, B and C. Some will only actualize A.[...]."

    the only thing essential to E (e.g., man) are (A) animality and (B) rationality. when the essence is actualized, the two are necessarily actualized. and it then it what it is. but whether or not (C) engaging in heterosexual acts is actualized is irrelevant to whether E is in fact E. that is, in determining whether or not E is in fact an E. hence, another instance of E who engages in C is better than the first instance of E qua accidentality, so to speak, for degrees (of being) only occur in accidental being, not substantial being. one substance is not more so than another. substantially i.e., qua essence, the first instance of E is not more E than the second instance of it. again, it's more or less (e.g., better) only in terms of accidental perfections which follow on it.

    hope this is helpful.

    ReplyDelete
  147. Dd:

    the only thing essential to E (e.g., man) are (A) animality and (B) rationality. when the essence is actualized, the two are necessarily actualized. and it then it what it is. but whether or not (C) engaging in heterosexual acts is actualized is irrelevant to whether E is in fact E. that is, in determining whether or not E is in fact an E. hence, another instance of E who engages in C is better than the first instance of E qua accidentality, so to speak, for degrees (of being) only occur in accidental being, not substantial being. one substance is not more so than another. substantially i.e., qua essence, the first instance of E is not more E than the second instance of it. again, it's more or less (e.g., better) only in terms of accidental perfections which follow on it.

    First, why do degrees of being only occur in accidental being, and not substantial being? God is a substantial being without any accidental being, and yet he has more being than any individual human being. So, it seems that there are degrees of being in substantial being.

    Second, rationality is an essential property of human nature. It is pretty clear that there are different degrees of rationality, because there are degrees of effective and appropriate use of reason by human beings. It seems to follow that some humans actualize the essential property of rationality more than other humans, despite all sharing the same human nature and essence. And if that is the case, then you have degrees of being in the actualization of essential properties, and thus substantial being.

    As Stump writes:

    “The sense of ‘goodness’, however, is not simply the possession of some substantial form but, the actualization of the specifying potentiality of the nature conferred by that form. Only to the extent to which a thing has actualized that potentiality is it true to say unqualifiedly that a thing is good” (Aquinas, p. 73)

    And

    “every instance of existence is existence as something or other, and existence as something or other typically admits of degrees. A thing can be a more or less fully developed actualized specimen of its kind; it can have actualized its specifying potentiality to a greater or less degree … there is more than just existence; the actualization of the specifying potentiality of a thing is also being of a sort” (Aquinas, p. 73).

    ReplyDelete
  148. As far as I know, God is more being than us because none of his being exists potentially, it's all actualized. Everything else is potential to some degree. I may have to get out Aquinas and check that, though....

    ReplyDelete
  149. Nick:

    That agrees with my position. The more actual and less potential a being is, the more reality is exhibits and contains, which is part of the idea that there are degrees of being.

    ReplyDelete
  150. dguller

    Sorry to say you are in full fallacy of equivocation mode.

    ReplyDelete
  151. Ben:

    Vision is not an essential property of a human being otherwise the blind would be non-human.

    Not necessarily. It could be an essential property of a human being that simply is not actualized. For example, a human with brain damage and defective reasoning capabilities is incapable of actualizing his essential rational properties, but he is still human, because he still has a human essence. Remember, you don’t have to actualize essential human properties in order to still be a human being. I can even find you a Feser quote that supports this idea.

    ReplyDelete
  152. >And any comments about the paragraph after that in which I made reference to your rationality, which is essential to your human nature?

    Gotcha! How does he have a human essence then if he doesn't actualized this property of intellect?

    There is something essential about his humanity that makes him thus wuither he actualizes this potential or not.

    It must be essential to him being human vs not being human.

    ReplyDelete
  153. Ben:

    Sorry to say you are in full fallacy of equivocation mode.

    Care to cite some examples?

    I am making a distinction between an essence and essential properties. An essence remains the same, but essential properties may or may not be actualized, depending on whether there are factors that are thwarting their natural progression towards their final ends. So, they are related, but also different in important ways.

    I am trying to focus your attention to how different individual beings with the same essence differ in terms of how they actualize their essential properties to different degrees, some more than others. You must understand that a human being with the essence of a rational animal can fail to actualize the intellectual ability to abstract universals from material particulars, which means that they are not actually rational, but only potentially so, which means that they would be actually rational if only there were no obstruction in place.

    Otherwise, you are left with the paradox of saying that an embryo with no sensory apparatus and no cognitive apparatus, and thus no possibility of an intellect extracting universals from the phantasms provided by the senses, can reason and exercise its intellectual powers just as well as Edward Feser. You could say that they share the same nature, which includes essential properties that Feser happens to actualize to a larger degree than an embryo within which those essential properties are mere potentialities, awaiting a period of development in order to eventually be actualized, assuming no obstructive influences along the way. So, they have the same essential properties, but Feser in actuality and the embryo in potentiality.

    ReplyDelete
  154. Ben:

    Gotcha! How does he have a human essence then if he doesn't actualized this property of intellect?

    Because it is present as a specifying potentiality.

    There is something essential about his humanity that makes him thus wuither he actualizes this potential or not.

    Right. It is that it is a specifying potentiality for him, which is no longer potential if he ever actualizes it.

    It must be essential to him being human vs not being human.

    Right, because it is a specifying potentiality for him, which either remains a potential, if obstructed or thwarted in some way, or becomes actual, and thus a part of actual reality.

    ReplyDelete
  155. >Because it is present as a specifying potentiality.

    So for the essence to be actualized as an essence these properties only have to exist in the essence as potential. None of them have to be actualized as actual properties for the essence to exist and be actualized as an essence of a specific type.

    A Bat essence has no potential for intellect but does have one for sonar even if the Bat is born with a birth defect that makes it def and mute. The bat's essence remains the same.

    >I am making a distinction between an essence and essential properties.

    Then for clarity's sake essential properties are properties that exist as potential and don't have to ever be actualized for the essence to exist as a real essence.

    But since an essence can exist as an essence without ever having to actualize any of it's other properties then my original point about myself, the gay dude and the 20-20 vision dude having indentical & equal essences stands.

    >Care to cite some examples?

    That is all I have been doing. You just don't agree with my examples.

    Thus you can't have inferior examples of human beings in their essential humanity since their essence as human beings is equal to every other essence in that they contain the same potentials even if not any or all of them are actualized from individual to individual.

    ReplyDelete
  156. Dguller, it seems to me that part of your mistake is in assuming that if things differ in degree of actualization of essential properties, some are inferior or superior, then, in essence. I think you're looking at this in a backwards manner. If it were true that some things were essentially lesser, then they are just fully actualizing the properties of an essence lesser than the real essence, a sort of partial essence, rather than partially actualizing the properties of a full essence. Of course a partial essence is a nonsensical idea. You either have an essence whose properties you are trying to realize or you don't. You can't have an essence itself in degree, even if we accept that you can realize essential properties to different degrees.

    Now, I think the second part of your mistake is how you've interpreted your mistaken assumption. If I'm understanding the terms of this debate right, then the humanness of something is measured simply by whether it has that essence or not, not the degree to which it realizes any essential properties. Rather, the degree to which it realizes essential properties informs how well these properties have been realized. But nothing changes that the human is 100% human because nothing changes whether the human has the human essence or not. At best all that can be said is that a human is an imperfect human.

    To the Thomists out there, am I understanding this correctly?

    ReplyDelete
  157. To be clear, I'm not saying that I believe in these "essential properties" that dguller is talking about. They sound pretty suspect to me and I'm wondering if that's what led him to all of this wrongheaded thinking in the first place. I would like some clarity from the others on whether these "essential propeties" are acceptable. Maybe I'm just overreacting to them a bit or misunderstand them.

    ReplyDelete
  158. >I am trying to focus your attention to how different individual beings with the same essence differ in terms of how they actualize their essential properties to different degrees, some more than others.

    I am not trying to dispute that I am saying essences of a thing are equal and equally actual as essences.

    Some individual substances may have more or less of their actual potential made actual to various degrees but the essence is the same.

    Thus in principle there can be no such thing as an inferior human being. All essences of a specific species or type contain the same potencys even if specific substantial forms don't actualized all or any of them.

    As essence they are the same. Equal.

    ReplyDelete
  159. Nick Corrado said...

    Dguller, it seems to me that part of your mistake is in assuming that if things differ in degree of actualization of essential properties, some are inferior or superior, then, in essence. I think you're looking at this in a backwards manner. If it were true that some things were essentially lesser, then they are just fully actualizing the properties of an essence lesser than the real essence, a sort of partial essence, rather than partially actualizing the properties of a full essence. Of course a partial essence is a nonsensical idea. You either have an essence whose properties you are trying to realize or you don't. You can't have an essence itself in degree, even if we accept that you can realize essential properties to different degrees.

    Now, I think the second part of your mistake is how you've interpreted your mistaken assumption. If I'm understanding the terms of this debate right, then the humanness of something is measured simply by whether it has that essence or not, not the degree to which it realizes any essential properties. Rather, the degree to which it realizes essential properties informs how well these properties have been realized. But nothing changes that the human is 100% human because nothing changes whether the human has the human essence or not. At best all that can be said is that a human is an imperfect human.

    To the Thomists out there, am I understanding this correctly?
    August 10, 2012 1:47 PM



    I'm not a Thomist but it sounds about as good an estimate as any other.

    It looks to me as though you and other commenters are correct and that dguller has in fact dusted his understanding of act and potency with a little Abraham Maslow here and a little Sartre there.

    But I wouldn't be upset to find my take mistaken.

    ReplyDelete
  160. I don't know who you are Anon but I like you already. Please pick a handle so as not to confuse you with the troll anons or the Gnus. Cheers.

    But Anon has already stood out without a handle. Just sayin'. :-) Of course, yes, a handle does makes it easier to notice at a glance.

    Anyway, my guess is that Anon knows a thing or two about object-oriented analysis (OOA). His question to dguller fleshed out what appears to be a vital aspect of dguller's view of marriage. Thanks to Anon's question, and dguller's subsequent confirmation, it now seems likely that 'marriage' is viewed by dguller mainly if not merely as an 'object', a combination of antiseptic state and behavior.

    As I understand it, two OOA principles are: a) if one can pin down or simply define the salient properties of an object, then that object with its salient properties can be instantiated in a myriad of ways; and, b) provided the interface of that object with the world at large remains 'consistent' (and one can fiddle with the definition of that object's salient properties so as to better conduce to the desired consistency), then, functionally speaking, one instantiation is as good as any other.

    But OO analysis involves a way of classifying things which differs from the A-T classification of things, and dguller seems to display a Sphex-like dedication to misapplying symbolic logic to the traditional logic of A-T in order to 'prove' that the A-T framework entails the acceptance of what does not follow from it.

    "This distinction between words and symbols brings to light the philosophical differences between traditional logic and symbolic logic. Traditional logic views the activity of reasoning both as a kind of understanding and then as an ordering of the concepts understood. Symbolic logic, on the other hand, views the activity of reasoning as mere process or method which can be carried out mechanically without regard for the subject matter under consideration. Traditional logic is concerned with truth, content, what we are talking about -- a relation whereby our ideas conform to the way things are. Our reason is measured by the reality which it considers. In symbolic logic, on the other hand, the criteria is one of 'truth-value', a way of considering reasoning only as validity of sequence. To knowingly call true that which bears no relation to truth spells the end of the intellectual life for all further discourse becomes futile.

    "The fact of the matter is that how computers operate is closer to symbolic logic: they perform the abstract manipulation of symbols, with logical consistency, and without regard for meaning. However, this is not what the programmer does. Most of the time the programmer's reason is concerned with words that signify concepts and the intelligible order of things. And the concepts signified must be understood by the programmer before they can be ordered by the programmer." Aristotle and Object-Oriented Programming: Why Modern Students Need Traditional Logic

    (But some programmers can do like computers can do, and 'social justice' advocates (be they actual or 'honorary') can do like some programmers can do--use algebra-like manipulations to churn out results deemed to be necessary, entailed, infallible and unimpeachable. And if the framework of A-T can be pressed into servicing this end, then all the better, hurray, hurray (bzzt).)

    ReplyDelete
  161. I still say whatever quibbling or disagreement or errors dguller might have he is light years ahead of any worthless Gnu who has tried to tackle these issues by outright refusing to do the reading.

    I've said it in the past I wouldn't be surprised if he knows more than I do.

    But I still think I am right here.

    But maybe we are not that far apart.

    ReplyDelete
  162. Ben:

    So for the essence to be actualized as an essence these properties only have to exist in the essence as potential. None of them have to be actualized as actual properties for the essence to exist and be actualized as an essence of a specific type.

    Like I’ve been saying all along.

    A Bat essence has no potential for intellect but does have one for sonar even if the Bat is born with a birth defect that makes it def and mute. The bat's essence remains the same.

    Like I’ve been saying all along.

    Then for clarity's sake essential properties are properties that exist as potential and don't have to ever be actualized for the essence to exist as a real essence.

    Like I’ve been saying all along, except that I would add that essential properties can also be actualized, but the essence’s definitional core holds true even if they remain in potential.

    But since an essence can exist as an essence without ever having to actualize any of it's other properties then my original point about myself, the gay dude and the 20-20 vision dude having indentical & equal essences stands.

    Only with regards to you both sharing an essence, but you forget that some particular beings with a shared essence actually actualize their essential properties more than other particular beings, and according to the doctrine of transcendentals, the former are more real, more good, and more true with regards to the standard set by their essence, than the latter. So, your point is valid in a sense, but it misses the entire point of my argument, which is not to focus upon the shared essence, but upon the difference between essential properties existing potentially or existing actually in a particular individual, and it is at the level of the individual that my comparison with regards to comparative goodness, being and truth occurs. You have been focused upon a totally different level, and thus haven’t addressed my claim at all.

    That is all I have been doing. You just don't agree with my examples.

    I mean, examples of mine in which I have been equivocating. Cite statements that I have made on this thread to justify this claim.

    Thus you can't have inferior examples of human beings in their essential humanity since their essence as human beings is equal to every other essence in that they contain the same potentials even if not any or all of them are actualized from individual to individual.

    You cannot compare them on the basis of their shared essence, because it is the same, but you can compare them on the basis of how many essential properties are actual and how many remain potential. The more actual, the more being, the more good, the more true, according to the doctrine of transcendentals.

    ReplyDelete
  163. Ben:

    I am not trying to dispute that I am saying essences of a thing are equal and equally actual as essences.

    Then if you agree with me, then how can I be equivocating, unless you are also equivocating? So, if you agree with me that there is a difference between two individuals with the same essence in terms of how many essential properties are actualized and how many remain potential, then my argument follows. Your only move is to deny that there is a difference between essential properties that are actualized and essential properties that remain potential. Do you really want to deny the reality of potentiality, and open the door to Parmenides’ paradoxes?

    Thus in principle there can be no such thing as an inferior human being. All essences of a specific species or type contain the same potencys even if specific substantial forms don't actualized all or any of them.

    Again, and again, I am not talking about them at the level of their essences, but at the level of their differing individual actualization of essential properties. It is upon that basis that superiority and inferiority judgments can be made, because they must be made according to a standard, which must be the essence or nature that they share.

    Also, I notice that you have completely ignored the implications of your view that the only thing that matters when comparing two individuals is whether they share the same essence, and that it simply is irrelevant to what degree they actualize their essential properties versus keep them in potentiality. I’ll quote it again:

    “Otherwise, you are left with the paradox of saying that an embryo with no sensory apparatus and no cognitive apparatus, and thus no possibility of an intellect extracting universals from the phantasms provided by the senses, can reason and exercise its intellectual powers just as well as Edward Feser. You could say that they share the same nature, which includes essential properties that Feser happens to actualize to a larger degree than an embryo within which those essential properties are mere potentialities, awaiting a period of development in order to eventually be actualized, assuming no obstructive influences along the way. So, they have the same essential properties, but Feser in actuality and the embryo in potentiality.”

    What do you say?

    ReplyDelete
  164. Nick:

    Dguller, it seems to me that part of your mistake is in assuming that if things differ in degree of actualization of essential properties, some are inferior or superior, then, in essence.

    No, I do not. The essence is the same, as Ben is saying. The difference is in the degree to which individual beings that share the same essence are actualizing their essential properties versus leaving them in potentiality. Those individuals are superior or inferior to one another, according to the standard set by their essence, and by virtue those that have actualized more essential properties are superior instantiations of the essence than those who have actualized less essential properties.

    I think you're looking at this in a backwards manner. If it were true that some things were essentially lesser, then they are just fully actualizing the properties of an essence lesser than the real essence, a sort of partial essence, rather than partially actualizing the properties of a full essence. Of course a partial essence is a nonsensical idea. You either have an essence whose properties you are trying to realize or you don't. You can't have an essence itself in degree, even if we accept that you can realize essential properties to different degrees.

    I agree. That is why I am not saying any such thing. The essence is the same. It is a blueprint, built into the nature of the individual being. The more that individual being actualizes that blueprint in reality, the more it is a good instantiation of the blueprint, and the more true an instantiation of the blueprint, and the more real it is, in reality.

    Now, I think the second part of your mistake is how you've interpreted your mistaken assumption. If I'm understanding the terms of this debate right, then the humanness of something is measured simply by whether it has that essence or not, not the degree to which it realizes any essential properties. Rather, the degree to which it realizes essential properties informs how well these properties have been realized. But nothing changes that the human is 100% human because nothing changes whether the human has the human essence or not. At best all that can be said is that a human is an imperfect human.

    Agreed.

    So, what’s the problem?

    ReplyDelete
  165. Okay, dguller, precisely what are these essential properties you speak of? Can you give examples?

    ReplyDelete
  166. >Only with regards to you both sharing an essence, but you forget that some particular beings with a shared essence actually actualize their essential properties more than other particular beings, and according to the doctrine of transcendentals, the former are more real, more good, and more true with regards to the standard set by their essence, than the latter.

    No that is still incoherent and an equivocation.

    Two essences of the same species are both equally real. Both have the same property "to be" as essences. One just has more actualized properties then the other.

    Just when I thought we made progress......sign.

    ReplyDelete
  167. Oh, I think I see what you're getting at, Ben. The doctrine of divine simplicity necessitates that God is without parts and so doesn't have a being or an essence but simply is all of them, but that doesn't follow for other things. After all, if dguller accepts that we at least have an essence and an existence distinct but conjoined (did I put that right?) then we must have parts and so we can imperfectly realize essential properties without necessarily affecting, say, our realness.

    ReplyDelete
  168. First, if you disagree with the idea of degrees of being, then take it up with the Thomists here.

    As many have said, there are no "degrees of being" for humans. Accidental expressions of this being (read: bodies) may change, but this does not affect the essence.

    Second, although all humans have the same intrinsic worth, there are other factors that can modulate that worth. For example, take two 20 year olds, each in need of a heart transplant, or they will die within a month, one in a vegetative state, and the other fully conscious. Who should get the heart transplant first, if there is only one available? If they both have exactly the same worth, independent of how much they actualize their human nature, which is the same in both of them, then it would be fine to give it to the person in the vegetative state over the conscious person, right?

    Neither has more intrinsic worth. If you think you're going to catch virtue ethics in that kind utilitarian paradox, think again.

    Fine. Homosexuals who live a sexually active lifestyle commit are morally bad, which is different from a person in a vegetative state, or a poorly drawn triangle, or a dog with a broken leg, which are all also bad, but not morally bad. There. How does that change my argument?

    Because you've just given away the game. Moral goodness is connected to decisions, and it can't be shifted to individuals in the way that your argument requires. When someone acts immorally, it just means that they've made an immoral decision. You might call their morality "inferior", but to transfer this judgment to the people themselves is to commit the fallacy of equivocation.

    Say that X actualizes A and B, but Y only actualizes A. With regards to X, there are more potential properties actualized in the real world than with regards to Y, which means that with regards to X, there is more reality.

    This is utterly false. Is a stone less real than a tree because it actualizes less potentials? Further, do you realize that A-T considers people to be fully human as soon as they are conceived? And that it's considered murder to use the Pill, for instance, to wipe out this life? There are no "degrees of being human". Your idea is a holdover from contemporary philosophy--leave it at the door. The only things that change are accidental.

    ReplyDelete
  169. You know now that I think about I...I can concede the battle to win the war.

    For the sake of argument let us say everything dguller has just said is correct &I am wrong.


    Then logically what he said to Crude must be false.

    dguller said:
    >However, I find it ironic that you would be offended by me pointing out the fact that a particular metaphysical system necessarily looks upon your cherished friends and family as inferior examples of human beings.

    How do you know all of Crude gay friends and relatives lack more actualized properties from the set of essential properies in the human essence then the rest of the population that are not gay?

    Having one imperfection (i.e. in the case of being gay a disordered passion for sex with one's own gender) does not make you inferior especially since nobody has all actualized perfections.

    Checkmate! I just had to sacrifice my queen.

    ReplyDelete
  170. dguller also does not seem to understand that "being" and "actuality" are not the same thing. Potentiality has being no less than does actuality.

    ReplyDelete
  171. Gay people can't as dguller said to Crude, be inferior examples of human beings since just for being gay according to AT.

    Since having one imperfection doesn't mean any individual gay person has more imperfections than any other person who is not gay.

    ReplyDelete
  172. Dguller, I don't think we are actually disagreeing that much, but lots of confusion followed from your use of the phrase "less human" (or "inferior kinds of human"). Since "less human" makes no sense taken literally, either it must mean "less perfectly human" (which is absolutely correct, and fine to say, as long as the context is clear, and you are right on that score); or else it means "less than human", i.e. not actually human at all (which is all wrong and has everyone jumping on you). Looking back, it seems to me you were thinking along the lines of the former, not the latter, but there are still some details that are perhaps prolonging the confusion:

    The degrees of being usually refer to the hierarchy from rocks to plants to animals to man to angels, and so on. To say that some people are greater or lesser on this scale can only mean to say that some are human beings, while others are subhuman (or others are superhuman?), i.e. not actually human. To talk about degrees of perfected humanity is really to branch out in a different dimension; if we think of the hierarchy of being as a vertical axis, then degrees of fulfilment would be a horizontal axis. So you are right about the transcendentals, and to be a better human is to be a more real human, and so on, in that sense; but this needs to be clearly separated from talk about different natures or essences.

    Remember that everything exists according to the mode of its existence. Accidental being is different from substantial being. When you say that you are not talking about accidents, you are mistaken (which again helps perpetuate the confusion). It is according to human nature to have two legs; but to have one leg, or two, or three, is an accident of a particular person. If it were not, then human beings could not have different numbers of legs; and conversely, to have a different number of legs would mean you weren't human. So yes, every individual of the same essence does actualise all essential properties to an identical extent! To be different, they would have to be accidents. That which flows directly from an essence is always actualised because it is actualised simply by the presence of the substantial form. To be an X = to have the substantial form of X-ness = to have all the essential properties of X-ness.

    Thomists distinguish proper accidents from common accidents. For example, human beings consist of body and intellect, and therefore have the capacity for laughter (unlike animals or angels, which have only one or the other). But laughter is not the essence of a human being; it's an accident that happens to apply to everything that qualifies as human, i.e. it is a "proper" accident. Note that the exercise of this capacity is of course a "common" accident — you could go your whole life without actually laughing, even though you always possess the fundamental power. (I think "exercise" is a more helpful term here than "express".) One man is "better" or "worse" than another insofar as his common accidents fulfil his human nature. (Note that a baby at even the most primitive stage of its development is indeed a rational being because it always has an intellect; it is not always able to exercise that rationality. The rationality (i.e. having an intellect) is always present and always fully actualised because it is part of the human essence; it doesn't come and go.)

    ReplyDelete
  173. Ben:

    Two essences of the same species are both equally real. Both have the same property "to be" as essences. One just has more actualized properties then the other.

    And that is how we can judge one to be a superior instantiation of the essence compared to another despite having the same essence.

    How do you know all of Crude gay friends and relatives lack more actualized properties from the set of essential properies in the human essence then the rest of the population that are not gay?

    I don’t, but compared to those who utilize their sexual organs for the purpose of procreation, they are deficient, and it is because they are not actualizing the potentiality of a sexual organ to be the means for procreation, which is its final end. Evil and immorality lie in the obstruction of such an actualization, and thus their behavior is considered immoral and evil, which is inferior to behavior that is considered moral and good. So, with respect to their sexual nature, they are inferior compared to those who use their sexuality for procreation. I don’t think that this is controversial in a Thomist framework. Feser effectively says as much in TLS.

    The next issue is whether you want to consider sexuality as part of the essence of a human being, i.e. via its appetitive nature. I think that it is reasonable to do so by virtue of the animal in “rational animal”. So, if sexuality is part of the essence of a human being, then a thwarted sexual final end is a thwarted human nature, although it can be attenuated by actualization of other final ends of human nature.

    And the goodness of something is always relative, except for Pure Act, which is goodness per se by virtue of maximum actualization of its essence, which is existence. For everything else that is a mixture of actuality and potentiality, goodness is necessarily relative to other beings with a similar essence.

    Having one imperfection (i.e. in the case of being gay a disordered passion for sex with one's own gender) does not make you inferior especially since nobody has all actualized perfections.

    It does, when compared to those who lack that imperfection. Sure, there are other ways in which they are better than those same people, but with regards to sexuality, they are inferior, much like those who use contraception, enjoy oral and anal sex, and want to be married without procreation are inferior to those who use their sexual organs for procreation, or do not use them at all and remain celibate (although I’m not entirely convinced of this).

    ReplyDelete
  174. Rank:

    As many have said, there are no "degrees of being" for humans. Accidental expressions of this being (read: bodies) may change, but this does not affect the essence.

    If there are degrees of goodness in humans, then there are degrees of being in humans, because goodness and being are coextensive by virtue of the doctrine of the transcendentals. If you want to deny the fact of degrees of being in humans, then you must also deny the transcendentals, which would amount to a rejection of a pretty important pillar of Thomism.

    Neither has more intrinsic worth. If you think you're going to catch virtue ethics in that kind utilitarian paradox, think again.

    Then it makes no difference who gets the heart, and we can just roll the dice! Oh, and you can tell the conscious person and their family that he will have to die so the person in the vegetative state will continue to live on life support.

    Because you've just given away the game. Moral goodness is connected to decisions, and it can't be shifted to individuals in the way that your argument requires. When someone acts immorally, it just means that they've made an immoral decision. You might call their morality "inferior", but to transfer this judgment to the people themselves is to commit the fallacy of equivocation.

    I see. So, if I choose to rob someone, then I am not responsible for my decision. It was my will and hand. Arrest them! Obviously, responsibility for choices goes to the whole person, and not just to one part.

    This is utterly false. Is a stone less real than a tree because it actualizes less potentials?

    Yes. I can cite Stump, if you want. It’s at the end of her chapter in Aquinas on “goodness”.

    Further, do you realize that A-T considers people to be fully human as soon as they are conceived? And that it's considered murder to use the Pill, for instance, to wipe out this life? There are no "degrees of being human". Your idea is a holdover from contemporary philosophy--leave it at the door. The only things that change are accidental.

    I do understand that, and it has nothing to do with the point that I’m making here.

    ReplyDelete
  175. Rank:

    dguller also does not seem to understand that "being" and "actuality" are not the same thing. Potentiality has being no less than does actuality

    I do understand the distinction pretty well, actually. That is why I make a point of saying actualization of a potentiality to differentiate the two.

    ReplyDelete
  176. If there are degrees of goodness in humans, then there are degrees of being in humans, because goodness and being are coextensive by virtue of the doctrine of the transcendentals. If you want to deny the fact of degrees of being in humans, then you must also deny the transcendentals, which would amount to a rejection of a pretty important pillar of Thomism.

    This rests on another equivocation: one between "being" and "actuality". "Being" is a state that applies to all things, extant or not. "Being" is not "existence", nor is it "actuality": it encompasses and exceeds both. It also encompasses essence, potentiality and literally every single thing in the world--even objects of thought.

    Then it makes no difference who gets the heart, and we can just roll the dice! Oh, and you can tell the conscious person and their family that he will have to die so the person in the vegetative state will continue to live on life support.

    If this sounds like a reductio to you, then I recommend that you brush up on virtue ethics. They can be stunningly ruthless: http://paulfsymington.blogspot.com/2012/03/sophies-choice-and-virtue-ethics.html

    I see. So, if I choose to rob someone, then I am not responsible for my decision. It was my will and hand. Arrest them! Obviously, responsibility for choices goes to the whole person, and not just to one part.

    Sure you're responsible. But being held accountable for your actions is just that: being held accountable for your actions. Acting improperly is not the same as being a lousy hammer or screwdriver--and it never can be.

    Yes. I can cite Stump, if you want. It’s at the end of her chapter in Aquinas on “goodness”.

    This sounds ludicrous, even if she said it. I can't see how it can be reconciled with Aquinas's actual beliefs.

    I do understand that, and it has nothing to do with the point that I’m making here.

    Sure it does. It shows that there are no degrees of being a human under A-T. The same level of "being a human" applies to every single human in the world, from conception until death. Nothing can be done to lessen or increase it.

    ReplyDelete
  177. For example: no one is punished for being a certain kind of person. "Rational animal" is the only kind of person. Rather, punishment comes according to the actions taken by that rational animal.

    If we call a murderer a "lousy human", we do so in a non-literal sense. He is a "lousy human" only in the sense that his actions were inappropriate. As with all humans, he himself deserves respect and justice. On the other hand, if we call a poor screwdriver a "lousy tool", we do so in a literal sense. It is a "bad screwdriver", through and through. It may fairly be tossed aside and considered "inferior" to other screwdrivers.

    ReplyDelete
  178. dguller,

    If you don't mind me asking, when you say you're an atheist, which statement do you identify that more with? a) I believe there is no God or b) I have not been convinced by the arguments and evidence I have enountered in my life so far?

    Also, do you have a preferred metaphysical system and epistemology that you adher to?

    ReplyDelete
  179. Mr Green:

    Dguller, I don't think we are actually disagreeing that much, but lots of confusion followed from your use of the phrase "less human" (or "inferior kinds of human"). Since "less human" makes no sense taken literally, either it must mean "less perfectly human" (which is absolutely correct, and fine to say, as long as the context is clear, and you are right on that score); or else it means "less than human", i.e. not actually human at all (which is all wrong and has everyone jumping on you).

    I agree. When I said “less human”, what I meant was “less actualization of essential properties of human essence”, particularly compared to another human being who actualized more essential properties. But I think you understand what I meant.

    To talk about degrees of perfected humanity is really to branch out in a different dimension; if we think of the hierarchy of being as a vertical axis, then degrees of fulfilment would be a horizontal axis. So you are right about the transcendentals, and to be a better human is to be a more real human, and so on, in that sense; but this needs to be clearly separated from talk about different natures or essences.

    I agree, which is why I kept saying, “given that the essences are the same …”. So, we are good here.

    It is according to human nature to have two legs; but to have one leg, or two, or three, is an accident of a particular person. If it were not, then human beings could not have different numbers of legs; and conversely, to have a different number of legs would mean you weren't human. So yes, every individual of the same essence does actualise all essential properties to an identical extent! To be different, they would have to be accidents. That which flows directly from an essence is always actualised because it is actualised simply by the presence of the substantial form. To be an X = to have the substantial form of X-ness = to have all the essential properties of X-ness.

    Here we differ.

    I thought the form of X is supposed to be the ideal X, which may or may not be actualized in reality. So, the form of a triangle involves perfectly straight lines and internal angles that add up to 180 degrees even though no actual triangle will ever be perfectly straight or have its internal angles add up to precisely 180 degrees. So, it would follow that the substantial form of a triangle in a particular triangle drawn on paper would not have all essential properties actualized.

    Also, if having a substantial form necessarily required full actualization of all essential properties, then how do you account for the teleological aspects of essences, i.e. their directedness towards the actualization of final ends? After all, this inherently involves potentiality, and not actuality, because the directedness is towards what does not presently exist, but ought to exist in the future, and will exist if nature is allowed to take its course without interference. So, substantial form, which is supposed to be totally actual, inevitably includes potentiality towards the future actualization of a final end.

    Finally, you have the challenge of showing what is actually present in all human beings that differentiates humans from other species. I think this becomes prohibitively impossible unless you include potentialities that are not actualized. Even saying that each human is a rational animal presupposes that they actually can exercise their intellect by extracting forms from sensory information about material entities, which is something that you can never demonstrate in many humans to show that it is actually happening.

    ReplyDelete
  180. Mr. Green:

    Thomists distinguish proper accidents from common accidents. For example, human beings consist of body and intellect, and therefore have the capacity for laughter (unlike animals or angels, which have only one or the other).

    Well, other primates can laugh, so this may not be the best example.

    But laughter is not the essence of a human being; it's an accident that happens to apply to everything that qualifies as human, i.e. it is a "proper" accident. Note that the exercise of this capacity is of course a "common" accident — you could go your whole life without actually laughing, even though you always possess the fundamental power. (I think "exercise" is a more helpful term here than "express".) One man is "better" or "worse" than another insofar as his common accidents fulfil his human nature.

    And this makes no sense to me. If laughter is limited only to human beings, then why can’t it be an essential part of humanity? I mean, an essence is supposed to be the definitional properties that differentiate one kind of thing from another kind of thing, and if laughter is only in humans, then why wouldn’t it be part of the essence of human nature?

    (Note that a baby at even the most primitive stage of its development is indeed a rational being because it always has an intellect; it is not always able to exercise that rationality. The rationality (i.e. having an intellect) is always present and always fully actualised because it is part of the human essence; it doesn't come and go.)

    But, having something that you cannot exercise just means that you have it in potential until it is actualized. It is not actual, because it is not actually happening. How can something be actual that is not actually happening? If it is there, but not actual, then it is potential, by definition, no? It could be happening right now, if not for something standing in its way, including your will’s refusal to actualize it.

    ReplyDelete
  181. @dguller,

    You like moi have argued with Gnus so I'm sure you will understand what I am saying. One can concede the Battle to win the war.

    If I concede the points you have developed then your initial statement to Crude can't be true.

    You concluded "some particular beings with a shared essence actually actualize their essential properties more than other particular beings, and according to the doctrine of transcendentals, the former are more real, more good, and more true with regards to the standard set by their essence, than the latter."

    If that is true then the statement you made to Crude QUOTE"I find it ironic that you would be offended by me pointing out the fact that a particular metaphysical system necessarily looks upon your cherished friends and family as inferior examples of human beings." cannot be true since merely failing to actualize the essential property of a heterosexual orientation does not mean your don't actualize other or greater then average essential properties your human essence allows.

    That seems to me to be indisputable at this point and thus I don't feel the need to defend my original arguments.

    Your argument and conclusion subverts your original statement to Crude.

    That is beyond dispute.

    >I don’t, but compared to those who utilize their sexual organs for the purpose of procreation, they are deficient, and it is because they are not actualizing the potentiality of a sexual organ to be the means for procreation, which is its final end.

    Yes just I am deficient in the area of 20-20 vision. But that doesn't follow I or they are inferior example of human nature since we might actualizes a lot of other essential properties to even a savant degree and have a more real human nature via your own argument and conclusions.

    Thus your statement to Crude was incorrect.

    >Evil and immorality lie in the obstruction of such an actualization, and thus their behavior is considered immoral and evil, which is inferior to behavior that is considered moral and good.

    It would be evil if I choose to drive my car without my glasses & the potential for that moral evil exists but not having 20-20 vision is not the same as commiting that moral evil. Even people who commit gay sex acts as a moral evil can still have other virtues actualized even to a great degree then average & thus are via your argument still more real than those who have actualized less essential properties then they in spite of their other short comings.

    > So, with respect to their sexual nature, they are inferior compared to those who use their sexuality for procreation. I don’t think that this is controversial in a Thomist framework. Feser effectively says as much in TLS.

    But you said they where "inferior human beings" via the AT model.

    Sorry all you have shown is they have failed to actualize a few of their essiential properties. You have not shown if they haved failed to actualize even 1/4 or half or more. Just a handfull. A deficienty in their psychological makeup (which is not a moral failing) and or moral failings tide to sexual immorality. But there are more physical, mental spiritual and moral properties and virtues that can be actualized by the human essence.

    So your initual statement to Crude about AT was clearly via your conclutions simply incorrect.

    ReplyDelete
  182. PART TWO
    >It does, when compared to those who lack that imperfection.

    That does not logically follow from your statement "some particular beings with a shared essence actually actualize their essential properties more than other particular beings, and according to the doctrine of transcendentals, the former are more real, more good, and more true with regards to the standard set by their essence, than the latter."

    Since you have only discussed in the general a few essential physical and moral properties. Not all of them.

    So your original statement to Crude by your own argument and standards is false.

    >Sure, there are other ways in which they are better than those same people,

    Then you all but concede your initial characterization of AT was false compaired to your subsequent argument and development.

    There is no getting around it via you own argument. Even persons with a gay sexual orientation who are also sexually immoral can have a host of other virtues physical, mental, spiritual and moral to a vastly high degree to the limits of human perfection. Thus how could they be "inferior human beings" via the AT philosophy? They simply can't if I accept all your arguments and reject my own.

    Checkmate! Goodbye My Queen! Fortunes of war and all that but nothing succeeds like success!

    That is all.

    ReplyDelete
  183. Rank:

    This rests on another equivocation: one between "being" and "actuality". "Being" is a state that applies to all things, extant or not. "Being" is not "existence", nor is it "actuality": it encompasses and exceeds both. It also encompasses essence, potentiality and literally every single thing in the world--even objects of thought.

    I’ll go with Aquinas on this one and say that actual being is associated with degrees of goodness and perfection, and thus degrees of actuality.

    If this sounds like a reductio to you, then I recommend that you brush up on virtue ethics. They can be stunningly ruthless: http://paulfsymington.blogspot.com/2012/03/sophies-choice-and-virtue-ethics.html


    All the more reason to use them with extreme caution. And I wonder if Aquinas would probably object to Symington’s analysis, because by refusing to help both her children, Sophie ended up causing them great harm and suffering without a just compensation or trade, which he would consider unjust. Even though other people may benefit from her action by being inspired by her defiance, her children were harmed, and without them receiving anything in return proportionate to their loss, then it would be considered unjust, and thus irrational.

    Sure you're responsible. But being held accountable for your actions is just that: being held accountable for your actions. Acting improperly is not the same as being a lousy hammer or screwdriver--and it never can be.


    I still don’t see how this is relevant. An immoral action is an action that a being with intellect and will performs that inhibits or reduces the actualization of their nature. Furthermore, the immorality of the action extends to the person making the immoral choice to begin with, and thus it is appropriate to call a person “immoral”, as well.

    This sounds ludicrous, even if she said it. I can't see how it can be reconciled with Aquinas's actual beliefs.


    What can I tell you? It’s on pages 75-76 of her book, Aquinas. Read it and tell me what you think. She writes:

    “because of the supervenience of goodness on being, a species or genus with more capacities of the sort that show up in the differentiae will hae potentially more goodness than one with fewer. So, other things being equal, the goodness of a human life is greater than that of a dog’s just because of rationality, the incremental capacity” (p. 75)

    and

    “we value a human being more than a dog (or a colony of bacteria), because there is more to a human being than there is to a dog (or a colony of bacteria)” (p. 76).

    Sure it does. It shows that there are no degrees of being a human under A-T. The same level of "being a human" applies to every single human in the world, from conception until death. Nothing can be done to lessen or increase it

    There are degrees to which different humans actualize their specifying potentialities as human beings, and to actualize something is to bring it into actual being, which is what counts for an assessment of goodness, perfection, and truth.

    ReplyDelete
  184. I’ll go with Aquinas on this one and say that actual being is associated with degrees of goodness and perfection, and thus degrees of actuality.

    Then you admit the existence of an unchangeable, inescapable human essence, and you are reduced to parsing out the accidental expressions of this essence. No one can ever have more or less of the essence: only more or less accidental expressions of it.

    All the more reason to use them with extreme caution. And I wonder if Aquinas would probably object to Symington’s analysis, because by refusing to help both her children, Sophie ended up causing them great harm and suffering without a just compensation or trade, which he would consider unjust. Even though other people may benefit from her action by being inspired by her defiance, her children were harmed, and without them receiving anything in return proportionate to their loss, then it would be considered unjust, and thus irrational.

    Who said anything about a "return proportionate to their loss"? You've presupposed utilitarian ethics. And, no--there is no reason to apply virtue ethics with "extreme caution". All deontological or consequentialist systems necessarily end up in absurdity, on top of running counter to the Christian "T" in "A-T".

    I still don’t see how this is relevant. An immoral action is an action that a being with intellect and will performs that inhibits or reduces the actualization of their nature.

    Again:

    If we call a murderer a "lousy human", we do so in a non-literal sense. He is a "lousy human" only in the sense that his actions were inappropriate. As with all humans, he himself deserves respect and justice. On the other hand, if we call a poor screwdriver a "lousy tool", we do so in a literal sense. It is a "bad screwdriver", through and through. It may fairly be tossed aside and considered "inferior" to other screwdrivers.

    Furthermore, the immorality of the action extends to the person making the immoral choice to begin with, and thus it is appropriate to call a person “immoral”, as well.

    "Immoral" in the sense of "someone who has performed one or more highly immoral actions", sure.

    “because of the supervenience of goodness on being, a species or genus with more capacities of the sort that show up in the differentiae will hae potentially more goodness than one with fewer. So, other things being equal, the goodness of a human life is greater than that of a dog’s just because of rationality, the incremental capacity” (p. 75)

    and

    “we value a human being more than a dog (or a colony of bacteria), because there is more to a human being than there is to a dog (or a colony of bacteria)” (p. 76).


    You've badly misread her. She's saying that a species or genus (separate types of "being") with more potentiality is superior to a species or genus with less--not that an individual with more actuality is more real than one with less. How could you possibly get that out of those quotes?

    There are degrees to which different humans actualize their specifying potentialities as human beings, and to actualize something is to bring it into actual being, which is what counts for an assessment of goodness, perfection, and truth.

    In one sense, yes. But, in the confused sense you're using it, no.

    ReplyDelete
  185. Ben:

    If that is true then the statement you made to Crude QUOTE"I find it ironic that you would be offended by me pointing out the fact that a particular metaphysical system necessarily looks upon your cherished friends and family as inferior examples of human beings." cannot be true since merely failing to actualize the essential property of a heterosexual orientation does not mean your don't actualize other or greater then average essential properties your human essence allows.


    But specifically with respect to human sexuality, they are inferior. In other words, insofar as they are homosexual and sexually active, they are inferior compared to heterosexual married individuals who are sexually active. Now, if sexuality is essential to human nature, then they are also failing to actualize something essential to humanity, and thus would be considered inferior human beings, as well.

    Yes just I am deficient in the area of 20-20 vision. But that doesn't follow I or they are inferior example of human nature since we might actualizes a lot of other essential properties to even a savant degree and have a more real human nature via your own argument and conclusions.


    But you did not choose your visual deficiency. A homosexual chooses to be sexually active, which interferes with the nature of sexuality, and thus is considered to be evil and immoral. And furthermore, since a homosexual is failing to utilize their intellect and will towards the actualization of the natural ends of their sexual nature, then they are also failing to be rational, which is the essence of human nature. As such, they are characterized by less actuality and more potentiality, which means that they are less perfect human beings, and since degrees of perfection correspond to degrees of actual being, they are less human being. And if this becomes a habit or disposition, then they are regularly circumventing their natural ends, too.

    Even people who commit gay sex acts as a moral evil can still have other virtues actualized even to a great degree then average & thus are via your argument still more real than those who have actualized less essential properties then they in spite of their other short comings.


    Agreed, although introducing the corruption of the intellect and will that must occur for someone to regularly and reliably obstruct their sexuality’s natural ends and purposes does complicate things. But regardless, if you take a homosexual and sexually active male named John and a heterosexual, married and sexually active male named Peter, and they are otherwise equal, you will agree that John is inferior to Peter by virtue of more greater degree of imperfection, which necessarily corresponds to a less degree of actual being because less of his essential properties are being actualized, which is all “evil” means. So, I am not saying that all homosexuals that are sexually active everywhere are necessarily inferior to married heterosexuals -- although if sexuality is part of human essence, then that would be the case – but that if all things are equal, a homosexual who is sexually active is inferior to a married heterosexual in the same way that a person that uses contraception, enjoys oral and anal sex, chooses to get married without wanting children, would be considered to be less actually human in the sense that I’ve explained.

    ReplyDelete
  186. Ben:

    There is no getting around it via you own argument. Even persons with a gay sexual orientation who are also sexually immoral can have a host of other virtues physical, mental, spiritual and moral to a vastly high degree to the limits of human perfection. Thus how could they be "inferior human beings" via the AT philosophy? They simply can't if I accept all your arguments and reject my own.


    First, why isn’t sexuality part of human nature?

    Second, even if you are correct, then why is being in a homosexual relationship grounds for a Catholic adoption agency to prohibit that couple from adopting a child? It seems that the Catholic church does not believe what you claim it does believe. In fact, it seems that it views an active homosexual lifestyle as sufficient evidence of overall perversity and imperfection as to warrant prohibiting access to their orphans for adoption. If you were correct, then they would just have to be selective and look at the overall picture, and not make a blanket condemnation as they, in fact, do.

    ReplyDelete
  187. >Well, other primates can laugh, so this may not be the best example.

    No it is a perfect example. One does not have to believe in God to reject the anthropomorphic fallacy.

    That is the fallacy of projecting human behavior onto animals. A primate even a higher primate may cackle when is happy but that is not the same as a human laugh. Primates have no intellects thus they cannot notice incongruous situations thus they can't get jokes.

    Just as parrots can imitate the sound of human speech does not mean Parrots have mastered language.

    ReplyDelete
  188. Rank:

    Then you admit the existence of an unchangeable, inescapable human essence, and you are reduced to parsing out the accidental expressions of this essence. No one can ever have more or less of the essence: only more or less accidental expressions of it.


    First, I have given my reasons above why saying that all essential properties are fully actualized in any instantiation of that essence does not make any sense.

    Second, it makes more sense to me that there is the same essence in all human beings, but that it exists in some combination of actualization and potentiality. The more actualization and less potentiality, the more perfection, the more goodness, the more truth, and the more actual being, which Aquinas treats as primary.

    Who said anything about a "return proportionate to their loss"? You've presupposed utilitarian ethics. And, no--there is no reason to apply virtue ethics with "extreme caution". All deontological or consequentialist systems necessarily end up in absurdity, on top of running counter to the Christian "T" in "A-T". 


    “According to Aquinas, then, whenever one person takes something away from another, the action will be just only if it is rational. A necessary (though not also sufficient) condition of its being rational is its involving an even trade, in an extended sense of ‘trade’ in many cases. A slanderer, for instance, takes away the victim’s reputation and gives nothing in return; slander is thus an injustice. Murder is a particularly great injustice, since in depriving the victim of life, one of the greatest of goods on Aquinas’ view, the murderer is not only providing no compensation but also rendering the victim incapable of receiving any such compensation” (Stump, Aquinas, p. 85).

    If we call a murderer a "lousy human", we do so in a non-literal sense. He is a "lousy human" only in the sense that his actions were inappropriate. As with all humans, he himself deserves respect and justice. On the other hand, if we call a poor screwdriver a "lousy tool", we do so in a literal sense. It is a "bad screwdriver", through and through. It may fairly be tossed aside and considered "inferior" to other screwdrivers.


    I disagree. A bad human is simply a human that has failed to actualize an essential property of their nature. That is why evil is the privation of actual being, and goodness is the presence of actual being. A bad human is literally deficient in being an imperfect human being by failing to actualize a specifying potentiality of his nature in the same way that a bad hammer is literally deficient by being an imperfect hammer by failing to fulfill its nature. That is one of the things I actually like about Thomism, the general framework to understand “goodness” as applicable to all kinds of beings, including both animate and inanimate entities.

    All things being equal, a human being that has actualized one specifying potentiality would be considered more good, more perfect, more true, and more actually real, than another human being that failed to actualize that same specifying potentiality.

    ReplyDelete
  189. Rank:

    You've badly misread her. She's saying that a species or genus (separate types of "being") with more potentiality is superior to a species or genus with less--not that an individual with more actuality is more real than one with less. How could you possibly get that out of those quotes?


    I’ve read her just fine.

    First, if you have two species, S1 and S2, and S1 has more potentiality that could be actualized in its nature than S2, then S1 can have more actual being, if fully actualized, than S2, because of its increased potentiality. In other words, if you look at potentiality as like a bucket, then the bigger the bucket, the more it can be filled, and the more it can be filled, the more actual being is in it. That is why we value humans more than dogs, because we have more potential to actualize, and thus could have more actual being, and thus more goodness, and thus more value, because all things desire what is good.

    Second, in her quote, she writes about a human being an a dog, obviously meaning a particular existing human being and dog, and not just the universal.

    Third, here’s another quote: “the actualization of a specifying potentiality can be gradual, so that the being of the thing whose specifying potentiality is being actualized can admit of degrees” (p. 73).

    Trust me, I’ve read her just fine. I can quote other passages if you like that say the same thing.

    In one sense, yes. But, in the confused sense you're using it, no.

    And what is my “confused sense”?

    ReplyDelete
  190. Ben:

    Do you laugh when you are tickled? Does that not count as a laugh?

    ReplyDelete
  191. @dguller

    >First, why isn’t sexuality part of human nature?

    It is part of human nature. But as you said the blueprint of human essence has a host of many essential properties. The more properties we actualize and to the highest degrees we actualize them the more real we are thus even with a deficiency in sexuality both moral and psychological one can be a superior human being in other respects and degree and thus a superior human being over all relatively.

    >Second, even if you are correct, then why is being in a homosexual relationship grounds for a Catholic adoption agency to prohibit that couple from adopting a child?

    Same as the reason why I am prohibited from driving a car without my glasses even if I am super f**king mega awesome in all other areas of my nature and subsequently can't hear you over the sound of my awesomeness.

    > It seems that the Catholic church does not believe what you claim it does believe. In fact, it seems that it views an active homosexual lifestyle as sufficient evidence of overall perversity and imperfection as to warrant prohibiting access to their orphans for adoption.

    It would make the same judgement toward a man living with one or more women he wasn't married too even if barring this one deficiency the guy was via your arguments super f**king etc...in other properties.

    OTOH a gay couple that is not abusive is better than a straight couple who is abusive.

    > If you were correct, then they would just have to be selective and look at the overall picture, and not make a blanket condemnation as they, in fact, do.

    But they don't make blanket condemnations. You really don't know Catholic History do you dguller? There have always been exceptions to that prove the rule.

    Latin Priests must be celibate but married Protestant clergy who convert can be ordained Priest in the Latin Rite and live with their wives as true husbands who sire children.

    Given the circumstances and given the age and maturity & good faith of the child in some cases the Church could in theory grant exceptions as She has always done.

    Before Pope Benedict in theory all Same Sex Attracted men where considered unfit for the Priesthood(not that the American Church didn't flout this rule shamelessly but that is another grip for another day). He modified the rule to include SSA's who where not recently active in the gay lifestyle and have been chaste for a time to show their commitment to the teaching of the Church.

    Anyway my points via your arguments still stands as to your statement to Crude.

    So I still claim Checkmate at the expense of my Queen.

    Now I will bask in the sound of my awesomeness.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW4n2xY25vo

    ReplyDelete
  192. >Do you laugh when you are tickled? Does that not count as a laugh?

    I am a human being primate not an animal primate.

    ReplyDelete
  193. >And what is my “confused sense”?

    This quote"First, if you have two species, S1 and S2, and S1 has more potentiality that could be actualized in its nature than S2, then S1 can have more actual being, if fully actualized, than S2, because of its increased potentiality."

    You are equivocating between the comparison of species with different essences and thus essential properties when one is superior to the other vs your original comparison of humans with gayness vs non-gayness who both naturally have the same essence.

    Naturally I am more than a dog but not in every case more than a gay since via your argument he may have actualized more essential properties and to the highest degree than moi even thought he might be deficient in not having a psychological makeup that actualizes a heterosexual orientatrion or he might also have a moral deficiency in the area of sexuality(i.e. he doesn't care who he bonks or when or why or according to any law of God or Man).

    So the problem remains.

    ReplyDelete
  194. Some loose ends.

    >But specifically with respect to human sexuality, they are inferior. In other words, insofar as they are homosexual and sexually active, they are inferior compared to heterosexual married individuals who are sexually active.

    But having an ordered human sexuality is not the only essential property of an essence. Stop pretending it is your own argument betrays you.

    Or are you moving the goal posts and trying to claim human sexuality via AT is the sole essential property of human essence? You know better.

    >Now, if sexuality is essential to human nature, then they are also failing to actualize something essential to humanity, and thus would be considered inferior human beings, as well.

    Sorry via your own argument morally and psychologically well ordered sexuality can only be considered at most two essential properties of an Essence. Not the sole essential properties. Your arguement, your chosen formulation the logic is undeniable and thus your original statement to Crude was false. No sense in trying to tell me to look behind myself so you can flip the chessboard around and claim victory.

    You are checkmated now and forever.

    >But you did not choose your visual deficiency.

    But I could choose to drive a car without my glasses knowing I endanger myself and other. Which is immoral.

    >A homosexual chooses to be sexually active, which interferes with the nature of sexuality, and thus is considered to be evil and immoral.

    But not all make that choice and even those who do can still have many other virtues actualized to a maximum degree. Including final repentence.

    >And furthermore, since a homosexual is failing to utilize their intellect and will towards the actualization of the natural ends of their sexual nature, then they are also failing to be rational, which is the essence of human nature. As such, they are characterized by less actuality and more potentiality, which means that they are less perfect human beings,

    But that is a falure in terms of the vice of lust. There are six other deadly sins they might not fall into and other virtues they might have in maximal capacity.

    You already said a person who actualizes more and to a great degree their essential properties is superior. You can't take it back now.

    Unless you want to take from my playbook and deny your thesis to this point and accept my counter thesis & try to turn it against me. Yeh good luck with that.

    ReplyDelete
  195. > and since degrees of perfection correspond to degrees of actual being, they are less human being.

    Everyone is less than the ideal so what? You still haven't made the case they are inferior since they can still actualize other essential properties to a greater degree.

    >Agreed, although introducing the corruption of the intellect and will that must occur for someone to regularly and reliably obstruct their sexuality’s natural ends and purposes does complicate things.

    Thus logically your initial statement to Crude can't be true.

    >But regardless, if you take a homosexual and sexually active male named John and a heterosexual, married and sexually active male named Peter, and they are otherwise equal, you will agree that John is inferior to Peter by virtue of more greater degree of imperfection, which necessarily corresponds to a less degree of actual being because less of his essential properties are being actualized, which is all “evil” means.

    So they are equal in all respects except the moral use of sexuality? But being gay per say isn't what makes John "inferior" since John could morally believe he must not give in to his urges and fights them & even if he does give in repents and goes to confession. While Peter is straight as an arrow but cheats on his wife and doesn't think it is wrong to do so.

    A lot of f**king good Peter "superior" heterosexual tendencies do him there eh? If they are equal in all things but this then John is clearly "sperior" to Peter.

    >So, I am not saying that all homosexuals that are sexually active everywhere are necessarily inferior to married heterosexuals...

    Then you need to apologize to Crude for claiming AT teaches his gay friends and family members are "inferior human beings" since you can't by definition know the don't have many virtues to a great degree.

    BTW he needs to apologize too for telling you too fuck yourself. I don't give a shit who is first or who should be first. One of you has the virtue to do it or not & if not I pray grace on both of you too do it and grace on me for being a bastard on the internet.

    > although if sexuality is part of human essence, then that would be the case – but that if all things are equal, a homosexual who is sexually active is inferior to a married heterosexual in the same way.

    No a homosexual who knows he shouldn't have gay sex but obstanently chooses to do so anyway is worst then one who either doesn't know or one who has trouble overcoming weakness but is still trying his best. The Act of Gay sex is "inferior" to straight sex. The virtue of the actor is what is in question.

    ReplyDelete
  196. Second, it makes more sense to me that there is the same essence in all human beings, but that it exists in some combination of actualization and potentiality. The more actualization and less potentiality, the more perfection, the more goodness, the more truth, and the more actual being, which Aquinas treats as primary.

    No Thomist in history has agreed with this, though. More actualization is not inherently better than less. Actualizing your potential to blow up the Buddhas of Bamiyan is not better than not actualizing it. Moral behavior is the decision to actualize certain potentials and not actualize others.

    “According to Aquinas, then, whenever one person takes something away from another, the action will be just only if it is rational. A necessary (though not also sufficient) condition of its being rational is its involving an even trade, in an extended sense of ‘trade’ in many cases. A slanderer, for instance, takes away the victim’s reputation and gives nothing in return; slander is thus an injustice. Murder is a particularly great injustice, since in depriving the victim of life, one of the greatest of goods on Aquinas’ view, the murderer is not only providing no compensation but also rendering the victim incapable of receiving any such compensation” (Stump, Aquinas, p. 85).

    These situations are not the same as Sophie's Choice, though. The virtue ethics solution to Sophie's Choice involves no choice, because both choices are wrong. It isn't at all like murder or slander, in which one actively participates in evil. To say that the children in Sophie's Choice deserve a "proportionate return" is to demand a utilitarian solution--unless you're merely complaining about the Nazi's injustice.

    I disagree. A bad human is simply a human that has failed to actualize an essential property of their nature.

    This destroys the distinction between wilful privation and non-wilful privation. Clearly, you've missed the point. A human with a missing arm is not bad in the same way or for the same reasons as a murderer. We don't punish people for failing to actualize some part of their nature: we punish them for their decision with regard to this element.

    That is why evil is the privation of actual being, and goodness is the presence of actual being.

    Goodness is the actualization of being that is good. Actualization on its own is neither good nor evil. The concept of evil being a privation regards intentional human actualization that inhibits the actualization of some essential element. Because it is intentional--a choice--, it is considered evil.

    ReplyDelete
  197. That is why we value humans more than dogs, because we have more potential to actualize, and thus could have more actual being, and thus more goodness, and thus more value, because all things desire what is good.

    But humans and dogs are two different species, which means that they have two different types of "being", which means that they have different amounts of potentiality. It is in this way that one can be called superior.

    All humans have the same amount of potentiality, even if almost none of it is actualized (i.e. if the human dies soon after conception). She's saying that we value humans more than dogs because of the potential for rationality. We continue to value this even in people with permanent brain damage, because the essence is the same, which means that the potentiality is still there--only impeded.

    Second, in her quote, she writes about a human being an a dog, obviously meaning a particular existing human being and dog, and not just the universal.

    No, she wasn't talking about particular beings. She was talking about a difference in species. She would have no reason to make the comparison that you're claiming she did.

    Third, here’s another quote: “the actualization of a specifying potentiality can be gradual, so that the being of the thing whose specifying potentiality is being actualized can admit of degrees” (p. 73).

    I have a hard time understanding that quote out of context. The technical jargon is making my head hurt. Got a longer version?

    And what is my “confused sense”?

    See Ben's response.

    ReplyDelete
  198. I'd like to expand on and correct a few things I said above. I wrote it in a hurry.

    We don't punish people for failing to actualize some part of their nature: we punish them for their decision with regard to this element.

    When we judge homosexual behavior as immoral, we judge the actions and intentions. We do not judge the people themselves. If we were to judge the people themselves, then there would be nothing to complain about--since they have the same nature as everyone else. Calling someone a "homosexual" is merely shorthand for "someone who engages in homosexual behavior". It designates no difference between "them" and "us". Indeed, there is no "them"-"us" distinction in this sense.

    As a result, we don't judge people as "inferior" for taking certain actions over others. We only judge actions as inferior. Although inferior actions necessarily lead away from God (or eudaimonia)--since they're against nature--, it does not follow that this makes the people themselves inferior. They cannot become "less human" or "more human" in any relevant sense. The only possible change is to move toward or away from God/eudaimonia. And, again, this is based on action and intention.

    Goodness is the actualization of being that is good. Actualization on its own is neither good nor evil.

    I should have said: actualization on its own can be used for good or evil. Actualizing my potential to commit suicide, for instance, might involve actualizing my potential to swallow a large number of pills. While the swallowing function--like all of nature--is inherently good, I can use it poorly. As a result, it does not follow that actualizing a lot of potentials is morally good. Instead, actualizing the right potentials at the right times with the right intentions is morally good. This brings us back to the distinction between wilful and non-wilful privation.

    ReplyDelete
  199. Only commenting so I can be #400.

    I'm off to actualize my essence, if you know what I mean. You boys have fun.

    ReplyDelete