Tuesday, January 28, 2014

Jerry-built atheism


David Bentley Hart’s recent book The Experience of God has been getting some attention.  The highly esteemed William Carroll has an article on it over at Public Discourse.  As I noted in a recent post, the highly self-esteemed Jerry Coyne has been commenting on Hart’s book too, and in the classic Coyne style: First trash the book, then promise someday actually to read it.  But it turns out that was the second post Coyne had written ridiculing Hart’s book; the first is here.  So, by my count that’s at least 5100 words so far criticizing a book Coyne admits he has not read.  Since it’s Jerry Coyne, you know another shoe is sure to drop.  And so it does, three paragraphs into the more recent post:

[I]t’s also fun (and marginally profitable) to read and refute the arguments of theologians, for it’s only there that one can truly see intelligence so blatantly coopted and corrupted to prove what one has decided is true beforehand. [Emphasis added]

Well, no, Jerry, not only there.
 
Now, criticizing what a book says when you haven’t actually read it is no mean feat.  After all, you’re lacking some of the basic resources commonly thought to be useful in doing the job, such as knowledge of what the book says.  How does Coyne pull it off?  MacGyver style.  He jerry-builds a critique out of the metaphysical equivalent of rubber bands and paper clips.   Unfortunately, Coyne is more of a MacGruber than a MacGyver, so the result is (as it were) an explosion which brings the house down upon Coyne and his combox sidekicks while leaving Hart unscathed.

Where most reviewers would prepare to attack an author’s arguments by consulting his book to find out what they are, Coyne’s procedure is to consult his own hunches about what might be in the book.  (All part of not “prov[ing] what one has decided is true beforehand,” you see.)  Coyne writes:

[A reviewer says that] Hart has presented the Best Case for God, and we’ve all ignored it… 

But what, exactly do we mean by “the opposition’s strongest case”?  I can think of three ways to construe that:

1. The case that provides the strongest evidence for God’s existence.  This is the way scientists would settle an argument about existence claims: by adducing data. This category’s best argument for God used to be the Argument from Design, since there was no plausible scientific alternative to God’s creation of the marvelous “designoid” features of plants and animals. But Darwin put paid to that one…

2. The philosophical argument that is most tricky, or hardest to refute: in other words, the argument for God that has the greatest degree of sophistry.  This used to include the Ontological Arguments, which briefly stymied even Bertrand Russell. But we soon realized that “existence is not a quality”, and that, in fact, existence claims can be settled only by observation or testing, not by logic.

3. The argument that is irrefutable because it’s untestable.  Given that arguments in the first two categories are now untenable, people like Hart have proposed conceptions of God that are so nebulous that we can’t figure out what they mean.  And because they are not only obscure but don’t say anything about the nature of God that can be compared to the way the universe is, they can’t be refuted…

And this, in fact, is what Hart has apparently done in his new book…

End quote.  Now, it’s interesting that Coyne’s first two possibilities roughly correspond to the contemporary philosophical naturalist’s standard assumption that if you’re not doing natural science, then the only thing left for you to be doing is mere “conceptual analysis,” which (so the standard objection goes) can only ever capture how we think about reality, but not reality itself.  Traditional metaphysics, which purports to be neither of these things, would thus be ruled out as groundless at best and (as the logical positivists claimed) strictly meaningless at worst -- not too different from Coyne’s third option.

The thing is, this commonly parroted contemporary naturalist assumption is just a modern riff on Hume’s Fork, viz. the thesis that “all the objects of human reason or enquiry may naturally be divided into two kinds, to wit, Relations of Ideas, and Matters of Fact” (Hume, Enquiry IV.1).  And Hume’s Fork is notoriously self-refuting, since it is not itself either a conceptual truth (a matter of the “relations of ideas”) or empirically testable (a “matter of fact”).  Now, the contemporary naturalist’s variation is in exactly the same boat.  The claim that the only respectable options are natural science and conceptual analysis is itself neither a claim that is supported by natural science, nor something revealed by conceptual analysis.  (The naturalist might try to bluff his way past this difficulty by asserting that neuroscience or cognitive science supports his case, but if so you should call his bluff.  For neuroscience and cognitive science, when they touch on matters of metaphysical import, are rife with tendentious and unexamined metaphysical assumptions.  And insofar as such assumptions are naturalist assumptions, the naturalist merely begs the question in appealing to them.)

So, the naturalist unavoidably takes a third cognitive stance distinct from natural science or conceptual analysis, in the very act of denying that it can be taken.  That is to say, he takes a distinctively metaphysical stance.  And so does Coyne.  Like his more philosophically sophisticated fellow contemporary naturalists, Coyne supposes that if a claim isn’t (1) a proposition of natural science or (2) what Coyne calls a proposition of “logic,” which his example (the ontological argument) indicates he takes to involve a mere analysis of concepts with no purchase on objective reality, then it must be (3) “untestable,” “nebulous,” “obscure,” etc.  But this supposition is itself neither a proposition of type (1) nor of type (2), in which case, by Coyne’s criterion, his own position must be regarded as (3) “untestable,” “nebulous,” “obscure,” etc.

In fact traditional metaphysics is not “untestable,” “nebulous,” “obscure,” etc., and neither are the traditional arguments of natural theology that are built upon it.  Take, for example, the Aristotelian-Scholastic theory of actuality and potentiality.  It is motivated completely independently of any theological application, and has been worked out over the centuries in systematic detail.  It argues that neither a static Parmenidean conception of the material universe nor a radically dynamic Heraclitean conception can in principle be correct; that natural science would not in principle be possible if either extreme position were correct; and that the only way in principle that both extremes can be avoided is by acknowledging that actuality and potentiality (or “act and potency,” to use the traditional jargon) are both irreducible aspects of mind-independent reality. 

Now precisely because the theory concerns what must be presupposed by any possible natural science, it is not the sort of thing that can be overthrown by any scientific discovery.  It goes deeper than any possible scientific discovery.  But that does not make it “untestable.”  To be sure, it is not going to be refuted by observation and experiment -- precisely since it concerns what any possible observation and experiment must presuppose -- but it can be challenged in other ways.  Are the arguments given for it valid?  Are the distinctions it makes carefully drawn?  Are there alternative ways of dealing with the facts it claims that it alone can account for?  And so forth.  Defenders of the theory take such challenges seriously and offer responses to them.  And they offer arguments, not appeals to intuition, or faith, or ecclesiastical authority.  (I’ve defended the theory of actuality and potentiality in several places, such as in Chapter 2 of Aquinas.  An even more detailed exposition and defense will be available in my forthcoming book Scholastic Metaphysics: A Contemporary Introduction.  The book won’t be out until May, but Coyne will no doubt have a 2500 word refutation up by tomorrow.) 

Now the core Scholastic arguments for the existence of God rest on the theory of actuality and potentiality.  (I defend these arguments too in several places, such as Chapter 3 of Aquinas.  For a popular presentation of one of them, see this public lecture.)  Because that theory is concerned with what any possible natural science must presuppose, the theistic arguments built upon it, like the theory itself, cannot in principle be overthrown by natural science.  But, like that theory, that does not make the arguments “untestable.”  As with the theory of actuality and potentiality, we can ask various critical questions of the arguments -- Are the arguments valid?  Are their premises true?  Are there alternative ways of dealing with the facts they claim that they alone can account for?  Etc. -- and we can see how well the arguments can be defended against them.  At no point do the arguments appeal to intuition, faith, authority, etc.

New Atheist types will insist that there can be no rationally acceptable and testable arguments that are not empirical scientific arguments, but this just begs the question.  The Scholastic claims to have given such arguments, and to show that he is wrong, it does not suffice merely to stomp one’s feet and insist dogmatically that it can’t be done.  The critic has to show precisely where such arguments are in error -- exactly which premise or premises are false, or exactly where there is a fallacy committed in the reasoning.  (In Aquinas and in the public lecture just linked to, I show why the usual objections have no force.)  Moreover, as we have seen, the New Atheist refutes himself in claiming that only the methods of natural science are legitimate, for this assertion itself has no non-question-begging scientific justification.  It is merely one piece of metaphysics among others.  The difference between the New Atheist metaphysician and the Scholastic metaphysician is that the Scholastic knows that he is doing metaphysics and presents arguments for his metaphysical positions which are open to rational evaluation.  The New Atheist, by contrast, has no non-question-begging arguments for his naturalist metaphysics, but only shrill and dogmatic assertion.   He thinks that to show that he is rational and that his opponent is not, all he needs to do is loudly to yell “I am rational and you are not!” 

Coyne is, of course, evidently unfamiliar with any of the ideas referred to, even though they are at the heart of the Western theological tradition he ridicules.  He will dismiss them preemptively as “bafflegab,” “nebulous,” etc., though he has absolutely no non-question-begging reason for doing so.  He is, as I have pointed out before, exactly like the populist anti-science bigot who dismisses quantum mechanics, relativity theory, and the like merely because the terminology of such theories sounds odd to him and the conclusions seem counterintuitive.  Coyne would deny that the analogy is any good, but of course this just begs the question yet again.  What he needs to do is actually carefully to study the arguments of those he disagrees with, and then to show specifically where the arguments go wrong -- rather than engage in the usual New Atheist hand-waving about how they’re not worth the time, or that someone somewhere has already refuted them anyway, or that they’re motivated by wishful thinking, etc.  But that is exactly what he refuses to do.

Then again, Coyne assures us that he has in fact “spent several years reading theology.”  Really?  Apparently it was all in badly transliterated Etruscan, viewed through gauze bandages on a Kindle with a cracked and flickering screen.  While drunk.  And asleep.  How else to explain the following?  Of the claim that:

God is what grounds the existence of every contingent thing, making it possible, sustaining it through time, unifying it, giving it actuality. God is the condition of the possibility of anything existing at all.

Coyne, wearing his vast theological learning lightly, casually asserts:

Aquinas, Luther, Augustine: none of those people saw God in such a way.

I can’t top Kenny Bania’s reaction when reading this passage from Coyne.  Unlike Kenny, though, Jer, we’re not laughing with you.

454 comments:

  1. Anonymous,

    basically there is a distinction between two kinds of causal chains: one in which each member of the chain is (once caused) causally independent of the others (this is accidental) and one which each member is at each moment dependent on the previous member for its operation in the chain. This latter type is called essential.

    So, there are two kinds of causal power: those which are inherent (or built in) and those which are derivative. The derivative nature of an essentially-ordered causal series is what prevents it from going ad infinitum. and it must stop with a first mover, where first has a logical meaning rather than temporal. Does this help?

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  2. @Deus

    Thank for the analysis. I understand that part. My question is in regards to how one can prove that the universe/nature is in fact essentially ordered.

    That's been a bit of a stumbling block for me. Other than that the argument makes perfect sense.

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  3. @ Anonymous,

    Lets back-track a bit. Things are ultimately composites of actuality and potentiality. This is also inclusive of a thing's essence (what it is) and its existence (that it is). essence here is potentiality, but existence (actuality) is added to it (thus making it actually a being) by God who just is Existence Itself.

    To make a long story short, ultimately the existence of things needs a constant source to be at all. So, if every individual being in the universe is, at bottom, a composite of potentiality and actuality, the potentialities of which continuously (at each moment) need to be actualised, this must be true of the universe as a whole.

    (Remember that the term "universe" simply means the totality of all contingent beings; it is a reference to the collection of every particular thing in it, and has no meaning apart from this.)

    Thus to find just one example of an essential series is to prove by extension that God has to be the cause of all change in the universe, and also the existence of the universe as well.

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  4. @Deus

    Thanks for the clarification. My follow-up question now is, how do you respond to the charge of the fallacy of composition.

    We surely do observe that all things require an actualizer, but assuming that the whole (universe) does as well would it not fall prey to the fallacy of composition?

    IS there a way around this?

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  5. Anonymous,

    Consider the following:

    Each brick in a wall is 2 inches long. Therefore the wall considered as a collection of bricks is 2 inches long.

    Now consider:

    Each brick in a wall is red. Therefore the wall as a whole is red.

    I submit that the reasoning employed in Aquinas' argument is the of the same case as the second scenario. Bottom line: not EVERY instance of part-to-whole- reasoning is fallacious, as shown by the second example.

    Thus, if every thing composing the universe is a compound of potentiality and actuality, the same is true of the universe as a whole.

    If you add up a series of compounded beings (of potentiality and actuality) you get compound beings after all and not a simple one, just as adding up chocolate pieces will only ever get you chocolate and not apples (or what have you.)

    Again, the universe is not a distinct entity existing above or beyond the things in it; it's just a shorthand term for describing every particular thing IN it.

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  6. "We surely do observe that all things require an actualizer, but assuming that the whole (universe) does as well would it not fall prey to the fallacy of composition?"

    No, because the argument is not that because each existing thing requires an actualizer, therefore so does the universe as a whole (and it must be the same actualizer). The argument is that each existing thing requires an actualizer, and the ultimate actualizer can be shown to be (among other things) Pure Act, unique, immutable, and eternal, and therefore each existing thing ultimately has the same actualizer.

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  7. As happens so often on this site, the reply DeusPrimusEst posted while I was composing mine is complementary to my own.

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  8. Excellent. Thanks again to both of you for the help. After reading the specific pages from the book chapter you linked Scott it became much clearer. Now this are actually taking real form (pun intended).

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  9. Again, glad to hear it. Joyce is a great resource and guide generally (even though I see I've called him "George Hadley Joyce" instead of "George Hayward Joyce"; I wonder how many other times I've made that mistake on this site!). If you ever tire of reading him in electronic form, you can get his most important book here and his other one here. I have both, just because I'm old-fashioned enough to prefer reading such things in hardcopy.

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  10. @dguller,

    Why not? You can see the falsity of this premise by just looking at a physical state of a cat on a mat. Does that physical state refer to a cat on a mat, or a cat, or a mat, or an animal on a mat, or an animal on a piece of furniture, and so on? And you could add an infinite number of potential referents by just adding numbers to the referent. For example, does the physical state refer to one cat on one mat, or to two divided by two cat on two divided by two mat, or three divided by three cat on three divided by three mat, and on and on, to infinity?

    A very large number of possible referents != an infinity of possible references.

    In fact, it simply looks like you are introducing many more sets of references,

    A cat representaion can have a number of sets

    A mat representaion can have a number of sets

    An animal representaion can have a number of sets, of which a cat would be a subset of those

    A piece of furniture can have a number of sets, of which a mat is a subset of those

    etc...

    For most sets of referents, the actual number of referents in the set is probably fairly limited. I see no need to simply assume that any particular set of references necessarily must contain a vast number of references.

    We haven't really touched on language, symbols, etc., or generalizations and categorizations made possible by such. Like teaching a child the word yellow in relation to the color yellow and the child subsequently being able to identify the color yellow using the word yellow, for example. So I think that you are jumping the gun here .


    I would say that "a cat on a mat" would not be referenced by 1 physical state with a ton of references, but by many physical states with a limited number of references each. So, in a way, I think you are making this much more complicated than it actually might be.

    The fact that the conclusion, that it is not only logically possible, but physically possible to delimit the range of referents from a group of related states to a single referent, follows can be shown using simple math.

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  11. @dguller

    All that follows from your argument is that if a physical state A has some characteristics in common with a physical state B, then A can refer to B solely on the basis of the characteristics that they have in common. It does not show that A can exclusively refer to just one characteristic of B that they share in common. For example, say that A = {D, E, F} and B = {D, E, G}, then you can say that A refers to B in terms of D and E. But it does not follow that A refers to B only terms of D or E. That cannot be determined only on the basis of A and B alone.

    Then your sets are incomplete and do not show all references that the sets actually contain.

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  12. @Scott

    Moreover, let's take a cat to represent coffee, the relation of being on to represent the relation of being in, and a mat to represent a cup. Now the cat's physically being on the mat represents there being coffee in a cup.

    If fanciful "representations" like this are ruled out, it's not on the basis of the physics alone.


    Not sure why you think such would be ruled out. Confused maybe, but nothing that I have said rules out something like this actually occurring.

    No, I mean to say that when I (e.g.) hear a sound, my experience has that sound as an "object" (what I hear is the sound) and is thus in some sense "directed" toward it, even if I don't have any idea what it's the sound of.

    You are using the word experience in a strange way. Probably an ontological conception of the word experience that I do not share. Or else, I simply do not understand what you are trying to say.

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  13. @Scott

    dguller is willing to grant you this arguendo, but I'm not sure I am. In what sense does a physical state "refer"? Depending on precisely what you mean here, you may be begging the very question at issue.


    The physical state, itself, contains references. The sensory inputs related to the particular physical state, for example.

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  14. @dguller

    Also, just because two physical states share properties in common does not mean that one refers to the other solely on the basis of those properties. So, although common properties might be a necessary condition for reference, they certainly aren't a sufficient condition for reference.

    Give me an example so I can understand where you are going with this. Not sure I understand the point you are trying to make.

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  15. @Matt Sheean

    would you say that the correct referent ends up being selected for?
    For instance, that when I look at a car things like 'tire' get selected for rather than 'donut', at least over time. Maybe when I was a toddler I thought cars moved around on donuts. Over time a context develops in my brain that causes it, in the presence of this or that object, to select for what has been the most suitable referent for that object?


    Yes, in general though maybe not always.

    I do not think that it is uncommon for people to misunderstand things. Small children being a very good example.

    In fact, I think it is fairly common even for adults, especially when one lacks sufficient experience of whatever it is one is trying to determine.

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  16. Bob:

    A very large number of possible referents != an infinity of possible references.

    I understand that. My claim is that any physical state has an infinite number of possible referents, and I provided an example above to that effect, especially when one includes numbers into the number of referents, which you must do, because every physical state is countable, and thus amenable to mathematical analysis.

    For most sets of referents, the actual number of referents in the set is probably fairly limited. I see no need to simply assume that any particular set of references necessarily must contain a vast number of references.

    It isn’t “fairly limited”. It’s actually huge, because two physical states have an infinite number of properties in common, and the onus is upon you to be able to delimit the infinite range of possibilities down to one possible common property using only the physical properties of the physical states. Thus far, you haven’t achieved your goal.

    I would say that "a cat on a mat" would not be referenced by 1 physical state with a ton of references, but by many physical states with a limited number of references each. So, in a way, I think you are making this much more complicated than it actually might be.

    But any physical state could refer to an infinite number of possible referents. That is the reality, which you have to account for. Furthermore, you have to account for how it is possible, without appealing to a non-physical mind with intentionality, to delimit that range of possibilities down to a single possible referent.

    The fact that the conclusion, that it is not only logically possible, but physically possible to delimit the range of referents from a group of related states to a single referent, follows can be shown using simple math.

    Then show it.

    Then your sets are incomplete and do not show all references that the sets actually contain.

    But if you add more common properties, then how does this help to delimit the range of possible meanings? For example, say that A = {C, D, E, F, G} and B = {C, D, H, I J}. Here I’ve added two more members to each set of physical properties. Would you say that you are now in a better position to say that A (or B) is only about C (or D)? I think that when you add more properties to the sets, then you either (a) add more properties that they do not have in common, which does not help, or (b) add more properties that they do have in common, which just makes it harder to delimit the range of properties to a single one.

    The physical state, itself, contains references. The sensory inputs related to the particular physical state, for example.

    You claim that the references are the common properties between physical states. The bottom line is that two physical states never have just one physical property in common. They always have a huge number of common properties, and thus the onus is – still – upon you to show how you could delimit this range of possible referents to a single referent without appealing to a non-physical mind with intentionality and by only appealing to the physical properties of the physical states in question.

    Give me an example so I can understand where you are going with this. Not sure I understand the point you are trying to make.

    A rock share some properties with a bird. I don’t think anyone would argue that the rock refers to the bird. In other words, just because a rock and a bird have some properties in common is not sufficient to demonstrate determinate intentionality, because there is no intentionality at all. Intentionality is a property of minds, and a rock has no mind.

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  17. Bob:

    And even if a given physical state did not have an infinite number of possible referents, and only had an unimaginably huge number of possible referents, then it still doesn't follow that this assumption leads to the necessary conclusion that it is possible to reduce that huge range of possibilities to a single possibility simply on the basis of the physical properties of the physical states alone.

    Even under your account of reference, to demonstrate this, you would either have to show two physical states that only have one physical property in common, or how adding more physical states can reduce the number of possible references, and even more so, how adding more physical states can reduce the number of possible references to one possible reference.

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  18. @dguller

    I understand that. My claim is that any physical state has an infinite number of possible referents, and I provided an example above to that effect, especially when one includes numbers into the number of referents, which you must do, because every physical state is countable, and thus amenable to mathematical analysis.

    Ummm, no. You did not provide an example that shows this. You asserted that the possibilities are infinite. However, I see no reason, based on your example, why I should think so, nor why I should think that an actual infinity of references is even coherent, unless you are simply saying that there is such a physical state that will references absolutely everything and every possible combination fo everything, which is still not an infinity of references.

    Numbers are symbols which have specific references to quantity. I would think that the set of references for 'one' is itself rather limited. Do not confuse the set itself with it's applicability to other sets.

    It isn’t “fairly limited”. It’s actually huge, because two physical states have an infinite number of properties in common, and the onus is upon you to be able to delimit the infinite range of possibilities down to one possible common property using only the physical properties of the physical states. Thus far, you haven’t achieved your goal.

    Context matters, thought we agreed to that a long time ago on this thread and you really need to stop throwing out things like "infinite number". I see no onus to prove something that I do not believe is even coherent. There is no infinite range of possibilities.

    Furthermore, you have to account for how it is possible, without appealing to a non-physical mind with intentionality, to delimit that range of possibilities down to a single possible referent.

    A completely physical system can easily do so. It's a simple algorithm, by the way. It is, as far as anyone knows, something a brain actually evolved to do. You just need to divest yourself of your continued insistence on actual infinities, to see why this is really not an issue. Furthermore, I would say that what we call intentionality is one result of these processes and not a cause of these processes.

    Then show it.

    ...

    the intersection A ∩ B of two sets A and B is the set that contains all elements of A that also belong to B (or equivalently, all elements of B that also belong to A), but no other elements.

    ...

    But if you add more common properties, then how does this help to delimit the range of possible meanings?

    I am only interested in the intersection of the sets for the purpose of delimiting the range of possibilities. So if you only have a couple sets with many members in common, you will obviously need more sets to delimit the range of possibilities necessary to make a determination.

    You claim that the references are the common properties between physical states. The bottom line is that two physical states never have just one physical property in common.

    No, the bottom line is that if a determination cannot be made with just two relevant sets, than all you need are more relevant sets.

    A rock share some properties with a bird. I don’t think anyone would argue that the rock refers to the bird. In other words, just because a rock and a bird have some properties in common is not sufficient to demonstrate determinate intentionality, because there is no intentionality at all. Intentionality is a property of minds, and a rock has no mind.

    I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Intentionality itself seems to me to be an effect of processes not the cause of processes.

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  19. @dguller

    Even under your account of reference, to demonstrate this, you would either have to show two physical states that only have one physical property in common, or how adding more physical states can reduce the number of possible references, and even more so, how adding more physical states can reduce the number of possible references to one possible reference.


    The following are complete descriptions of the ranges of referents for distinct physical states, for the sake of argument and brevity.

    What is the intersection of these sets?

    {A,B,C,D,E}
    {A,C,D,E,F}

    What is the intersection of these sets?
    {A,B,C,D,E}
    {A,C,D,E,F}
    {B,D,E,F,G}


    What is the intersection of these sets?
    {A,B,C,D,E}
    {A,C,D,E,F}
    {B,D,E,F,G}
    {B,D,E,G,H}


    What is the intersection of these sets?
    {A,B,C,D,E}
    {A,C,D,E,F}
    {B,D,E,F,G}
    {B,D,E,G,H}
    {C,E,G,H,I}

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  20. Bob:

    Ummm, no. You did not provide an example that shows this. You asserted that the possibilities are infinite. However, I see no reason, based on your example, why I should think so, nor why I should think that an actual infinity of references is even coherent, unless you are simply saying that there is such a physical state that will references absolutely everything and every possible combination fo everything, which is still not an infinity of references.

    Any given physical state can refer to any other physical state, to any combination of physical states, to other physical property of another physical state, any combination of physical properties of another physical state, and to any combination of physical properties of multiple physical states. That, in itself, is an unimaginably large number of possible references for any given physical state. However, when you add numbers to the equation, then the possibilities explode into infinity, because even referring to one physical property could itself refer to 1, 1/1, 2/2, 3/3, and so on, to infinity.

    Numbers are symbols which have specific references to quantity. I would think that the set of references for 'one' is itself rather limited. Do not confuse the set itself with it's applicability to other sets.

    And yet, if mathematical operations are applicable to physical states, then my claim holds, because when I refer to one cat, then I could also be referring to 2/2 cat, 3/3 cat, and so on. Unless you want to say that it is impossible that such mathematical operations could be included in the set of possible references, which would require some work on your part.

    Context matters, thought we agreed to that a long time ago on this thread and you really need to stop throwing out things like "infinite number". I see no onus to prove something that I do not believe is even coherent. There is no infinite range of possibilities.

    Context does matter, and yet depends upon what you include in “context”. And we can drop the claim that there is an infinite number of possible references to any given physical state, if you like, and just stick to the unimaginably large number of possible references to any given physical state instead. If you are correct in your account, and physical state A can refer to something only if there is a physical state B that shares common properties with A, and since A and B will necessarily share an unimaginably large number of common properties, then you have to show how you can delimit the range of possible references in A (or B) to just one reference.

    the intersection A ∩ B of two sets A and B is the set that contains all elements of A that also belong to B (or equivalently, all elements of B that also belong to A), but no other elements.

    But if A and B have more than one element in common, which they surely do, then this does nothing to delimit the possible range of elements to just one element.

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  21. I am only interested in the intersection of the sets for the purpose of delimiting the range of possibilities. So if you only have a couple sets with many members in common, you will obviously need more sets to delimit the range of possibilities necessary to make a determination.

    Show how that happens. Say that you have A = {G, H, I} and B = {G, H, J}, and you want to delimit G and H to either G or H. So, you add a third set C. Now, if C = {G, K, L}, then you can certainly say that since G is common to A, B and C, then you are focusing upon G, and not H. But that assumes that you can have sets that only have one element in common. This may be possible in abstract mathematics and logic, but when you talk about physical states, then this becomes impossible. After all, any two physical states will have a large number of common properties, and you would have to show two physical states that only have one property in common. I don’t think that is possible, because at the very least, if two states are physical, then they must be in space-time, composed of quarks, containing energy and matter, in a state of motion and change of some kind, interacting with surrounding physical entities, and so on. Therefore, any two physical states will have more than one property in common, and thus your entire account is impossible, because it presupposes the possibility of two (or more) physical states having one only property in common.

    I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Intentionality itself seems to me to be an effect of processes not the cause of processes.

    Intentionality is the directedness of a mind to a particular thing. A rock has no intentionality, but it does have teleology, which is the directedness of a thing with a nature to maximally actualizing the powers and capabilities of its nature.

    What is the intersection of these sets?

    {A,B,C,D,E}
    {A,C,D,E,F}


    That depends upon what you mean by “intersection”. If you mean elements, in any order, then the intersection is A, C, D and E. If you mean elements in the right order and place, then the intersection is A.

    What is the intersection of these sets?
    {A,B,C,D,E}
    {A,C,D,E,F}
    {B,D,E,F,G}


    If the former, then D, and if the latter, then none.

    What is the intersection of these sets?
    {A,B,C,D,E}
    {A,C,D,E,F}
    {B,D,E,F,G}
    {B,D,E,G,H}


    If the former, then D and E. If the latter, then none.

    What is the intersection of these sets?
    {A,B,C,D,E}
    {A,C,D,E,F}
    {B,D,E,F,G}
    {B,D,E,G,H}
    {C,E,G,H,I}


    If the former, then E. If the latter, then none.

    Two comments.

    First, how does one decide, solely on the basis of the sets themselves what sense of “intersection” one is referring to?

    Second, how does any of this apply to physical states, which always have more than one property in common?

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  22. @dguller


    Any given physical state can refer to any other physical state, to any combination of physical states, to other physical property of another physical state, any combination of physical properties of another physical state, and to any combination of physical properties of multiple physical states.


    Now add context...

    And yet, if mathematical operations are applicable to physical states, then my claim holds, because when I refer to one cat, then I could also be referring to 2/2 cat, 3/3 cat, and so on. Unless you want to say that it is impossible that such mathematical operations could be included in the set of possible references, which would require some work on your part.

    Of course that would mean that 2/2, 3/3 actually are distinct references in the specific context. I would say that in the case of referring to one, in the context of one cat. What you are doing is playing with symbols, which is actually irrelevant at this point, as we are not dealing with language and symbolism, as I said earlier.

    And, one more time. If two sets are not enough to delimit the range of possible referents, than more sets are required to be able to delimit the range of possible referents to one.




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  23. Bob:

    And, one more time. If two sets are not enough to delimit the range of possible referents, than more sets are required to be able to delimit the range of possible referents to one.

    But if all the possible sets that you could add to the first two included more than one property in common, then under these circumstances, you could never narrow the range of possible referents down to one. You are assuming that two physical states can have only one property in common when I have told you why this is impossible, and unless you can show that two physical states can only have one property in common, then your account fails to show how a physical state can refer to one determinate meaning. At best, it can refer to a range of possible meanings, and thus be indeterminate.

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  24. @dguller

    But if all the possible sets that you could add to the first two included more than one property in common, then under these circumstances, you could never narrow the range of possible referents down to one. You are assuming that two physical states can have only one property in common when I have told you why this is impossible, and unless you can show that two physical states can only have one property in common, then your account fails to show how a physical state can refer to one determinate meaning. At best, it can refer to a range of possible meanings, and thus be indeterminate.

    In this instance, you would merely be faced with a situation where you couldn't make a determination. In other words, you wouldn't really know what you were looking at, but, if pressed, would just have to guess, probably based on surrounding context.



    Something that I would like you to consider.

    Of all the distinct properties that something actually has, those of a cat for instance; what percentage of these properties do you think are necessary for a mental model to include in order for one to be able to distinguish the object as a cat?

    Think about this in the context of our discussion. It may help clarify a few things.

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  25. Bob:

    In this instance, you would merely be faced with a situation where you couldn't make a determination. In other words, you wouldn't really know what you were looking at, but, if pressed, would just have to guess, probably based on surrounding context.

    But the problem is that “this instance” is actually every instance, because for any two physical states, there is always more than one common property that they share, and thus more than one possible reference, which means that it is impossible for a physical state to have a determinate meaning, which is precisely what I have been arguing. And appealing to the “surrounding context” does not help, if the surrounding context is only more physical states. In other words, in order for determinate meaning to be possible, one must appeal to something non-physical.

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  26. @dguller

    But the problem is that “this instance” is actually every instance, because for any two physical states, there is always more than one common property that they share, and thus more than one possible reference, which means that it is impossible for a physical state to have a determinate meaning, which is precisely what I have been arguing. And appealing to the “surrounding context” does not help, if the surrounding context is only more physical states. In other words, in order for determinate meaning to be possible, one must appeal to something non-physical.

    You keep on asserting this, but I do not buy it. I think you may be conflating everything that can possibly be part of a state, with what an actual state would need to consist of.

    I don't know what something "non-physical" means with regards to something that can do anything. A much bigger problem than what I have been talking about.

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  27. Bob:

    You keep on asserting this, but I do not buy it. I think you may be conflating everything that can possibly be part of a state, with what an actual state would need to consist of.

    We are not talking about what a physical state consists in, but rather what a physical state refers to, and you are claiming that what a physical state refers to is what that physical state has in common with another physical state. But the problem is that any two physical states will always have more than one thing in common with one another, and thus adding physical states cannot possibly result in a single reference, because there will always be more than one possible reference.

    For example, say that you have the following sets:

    A = {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7}
    B = {1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 9, 10}

    A and B could refer to 1, 2, 3, or 4. So, let’s add the following set to narrow it down:

    C = {1, 2, 3, 4, 11, 12, 13}

    Well, that didn’t work, because A, B and C could refer to 1, 2, 3, or 4. So, let’s ad another set to narrow it down:

    D = {1, 2, 3, 4, 14, 15, 16}

    That also didn’t work, because A, B, C and D could still only refer to 1, 2, 3, or 4. Now, if any set that you add to the original sets must include 1, 2, 3, or 4, then you could add an infinite number of sets, and still be no closer to narrowing down the possible range of referents at all.

    I’ve mentioned that two physical states will always have the following multiplicity of properties in common: in space-time, composed of quarks, containing energy and matter, in a state of motion and change of some kind, interacting with surrounding physical entities, and so on. Any physical state that you add to another physical state will have to include that set of properties in order to be a physical state at all. And since a multiplicity of properties is shared in common with all physical states, then it is impossible to narrow down a range of possible references to a single reference under your account.

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  28. Bob,

    Your rhetoric leads me to believe that you're not appreciating just how much dguller is granting by allowing the use of any variant of the verb "means".

    I'm going to try throwing something else out there. I have a gamepad for my mac, and for some games I have to use this joystick mapping software to map key commands onto the gamepad so that I can use the gamepad instead of the keyboard. The relationship between the keyboard and the gamepad does limit the total number of options, and, for myself, the efficiency of control will narrow down further which keys I am going to map to which buttons. However, we can not imagine, for the sake of the integrity of this analogy, that such a thing as I am imagining myself to be exists (something that assigns semantic relations). For the analogy to work with, we must suppose that "I" am something like the gamepad-keyboard-mapper system. Suppose my computer has been left on and the mapping software has been left open. A family of mice comes in, and a few of them walk back and forth across the keyboard (the clicking sound pleases them, I guess) and a few others clamber around the gamepad. The behavior of the two groups of mice does cause mapping to happen, in this case, between the keyboard and the joystick every time one of the keyboard mice hits the 'tab' key and one of the gamepad mice is hitting a button on the gamepad.

    Anyways, the mice scenario is something like what you're proposing, Bob. We can grant that there are certain things that a physical state must 'consist of' (as you say), but it doesn't look any better, as far as I can tell.

    Even if we give the mice fountain of youth juice and they are allowed to cavort on the computer for 3 billion years and they end up completing Call of Duty, they will not have done it because they meant to. Not even if we expand the scenario to include mice+computer+gamepad+whatever. No matter how big the context gets, it only ends up accidentally being a Call-of-Duty-completing system.

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  29. Mr. Green,

    "You believed certain modern scientists who said they weren't using formal and final causes and didn't notice that they were practically drowning in a sea of formal/final causes every time they opened their mouths to assure you how unnecessary they were."

    I wonder how many chemists begin a quest for a scientific answer with the question, What is nature's purpose, here? It seems to me this question, if asked, is asked after we have answered the real questions.

    Crude,

    No scientific theory depends on a hylomorphistic POV for corroboration or falsification. That makes it irrelevant from modern science's POV. If you want to argue that materialistic science has led to an incoherent body of knowledge, I doubt you'll get many believers in your form of coherence.

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  30. djindra,

    No scientific theory depends on a hylomorphistic POV for corroboration or falsification.

    No scientific theory depends on a materialist POV for corroboration or falsification either - if it did, it would be metaphysics, not science. Science has some basic metaphysical commitments, but they are broad enough to be compatible with a wide variety of metaphysical views. Materialism has tremendous trouble accounting for science in anything but the most superficial way - since science necessarily involves minds, intention, thoughts, etc. Which gets shoved under the rug and ignored.

    I know, I know - you've been told for so long that materialism = science. Pardon my being the bearer of bad news, but you were suckered.

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  31. Don Jindra: I wonder how many chemists begin a quest for a scientific answer with the question, What is nature's purpose, here?

    Where did you get "purpose" from? The word wasn't used in the original post or in the hundreds of comments since (except for a handful of utterly unrelated cases). Apparently you think "purpose" is a synonym for "teleology": and in fact scientific quests start by seeking some natural teleology all the time. However, if you think that "purpose" means "human intentions", then your challenge is ridiculously irrelevant. That you clearly do not understand the philosophical point at issue hardly tells us anything about science.


    If you want to argue that materialistic science has led to an incoherent body of knowledge

    You've got it backwards: the coherency of science is precisely the evidence against materialism.

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  32. @donjindra

    Can you explain to us why and how in a materialist world science is even possible?

    I know it's the new fad for atheists/materialists to try and hijack the word science in hope to hide their superstitions behind it but as of yet not one have provided us with a reason as to why science could even be possible in principle given atheism/materialism.

    Either provide a proof or stop appealing to science.

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  33. @Bob
    This is my take on Ross's argument for an immaterial aspect of thought. I just wrote this while watching the opening ceremonies and enjoying some wine, so hopefully it's coherent. I don't think it's much different in principle than anything that Scott or dguller have said other than the role (or lack thereof) of intentionality in the argument. Anyway, I said I would try to summarize it for you, so here you go. If you have an academic library nearby I would still try to get ahold of Dr. Feser's paper on Ross's argument.

    Any physical (material) system can be conceptualized in more than one way. This is true of any physical object, or mechanism no matter what it is or what is supposed to be doing, it can always be conceptualized/judged/thought of in more than just one way. This is true in principle because there is nothing inherent about the physical object, or mechanism that prohibits it from being conceptualized in more than one way. It is also irrelevant if this conceptualization or judgment is deemed accurate. All that matters is the fact that any purely physical system is prone to multiple conceptualizations and is therefore indeterminate with respect to those conceptualizations. I would note that the “aboutness” or intentionality of thought is not the same as what is meant by a concept or judgment. A mental image, or “phantasm” has intentionality because it is about a particular thing, but that is not the same as a concept of a thing. For example, I can have a mental image of a particular circle with specific dimensions, but when I form the concept of ‘circle’, that concept is applicable to all possible circles to infinity. No physical system is repeatable in that way.

    Thus, to think in the form of a conceptualization such as ‘circle’ is to think of a definite form, and that definite form, itself, cannot be of any other form or it would not be that thought at all. In other words, if conceptualizing was purely physical, then any conceptualization could be conceptualized in more than one way, but then it wouldn’t be a concept!! As already mentioned, it does not matter if the form of the concept is accurate. If I hear the rain on the window with no prior reference to what it actually is, I can still form a judgment of what it is, and that judgment itself is absolutely determinate. Thus, there are at least some thoughts that are determinate among possible conceptual forms, and those thoughts must have an immaterial aspect since all material things are indeterminate with respect to possible conceptual forms.

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  34. Can you explain to us why and how in a materialist world science is even possible?

    I'll give it a shot. Science is possible because of a commitment towards an explanation of observational reality that provides a pragmatic degree of predictability, said commitment emerging from instability factors in the natural world enhanced by a complex communication mode.

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  35. Crude,

    "No scientific theory depends on a materialist POV for corroboration or falsification either - if it did, it would be metaphysics, not science."

    If you know of something other than physical/materialistic objects or properties used by science to corroborate or falsify its theories please let me know. I'd be especially interested in its use of dualistic substances.

    However, maybe you think you can avoid this difficulty by proposing the metaphysics of science is that extra something. But you can't undermine science by claiming, metaphysically speaking, it shouldn't work, or even that it's incomplete. To be taken seriously, you'll have to show that the knowledge base itself is flawed. Was it pure luck we invented computers or landed on the moon by ignoring possible supernatural or dualistic properties? You must answer "yes" and explain why luck breaks so much in materialistic science's favor.

    Mr Green,

    Okay, I wonder how many chemists begin with the question, What is nature's final cause or teleology, here? Again, this question is asked after the important facts have been gathered. IOW, it's only through materialistic science that you have the data to ask your "final cause" question in the first place.

    Anonymous,

    Can I explain why and how in a materialist world science is even possible? It works. That's its goal. That's good enough.

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  36. @donjindra:

    "If you know of something other than physical/materialistic objects or properties used by science to corroborate or falsify its theories please let me know."

    How does using physical/materialistic objects or properties to corroborate or falsify theories commit anyone to a materialist point of view?

    "Okay, I wonder how many chemists begin with the question, What is nature's final cause or teleology, here?"

    They certainly ask How did effect E come about as a result of causal factors A, B, C, and D? If they (or you) fail to recognize that this is the very same question as How did causal factors A, B, C, and D result in effect E?, that's just a failure on their (or your) part.

    "Again, this question is asked after the important facts have been gathered. IOW, it's only through materialistic science that you have the data to ask your 'final cause' question in the first place."

    Even assuming this is true, so what? In what way does the real existence of final causes depend on the way we come to ask questions about them?

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  37. djindra,

    If you know of something other than physical/materialistic objects or properties used by science to corroborate or falsify its theories please let me know. I'd be especially interested in its use of dualistic substances.

    "All of them." As I keep telling you, a property that can be conceived in such a way so as to be compatible with materialism or physicalism does not make the property in question a 'materialist/physicalist property'. You may as well be an idealist telling me "Show me the object of science that isn't ultimately thought". That doesn't make science idealist.

    However, maybe you think you can avoid this difficulty by proposing the metaphysics of science is that extra something. But you can't undermine science by claiming, metaphysically speaking, it shouldn't work, or even that it's incomplete.

    I'm not attempting to undermine science - you are, by completely misconceiving the limits, scope and foundations of science. The only difficulty I'm having here is with trying to educate you about science itself - you're stuck in a mental trap of 'If I can conceive of it in a way which is compatible with materialism, it's materialist! But if it's compatible with anything else it's not anything else because... well, I dunno. I said it first!'

    So please, knock it off. Or at least be forthright and say 'If science isn't materialism, then to hell with it. I'm not interested in science for its own sake, only science that can be marshalled for my beliefs!' At least then we can get that whole 'Atheist Ken Ham' connection nicely established and illustrate why you're abusing science in the way you are.

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  38. I would say science does have a structural bias against many varieties of theism. In other words a scientist who claims his experiment failed because of an evil spirit, or that it worked because he used a religious ritual or object to bless the lab would not be "doing science" even if he was personally convinced of the truth of that portion of his explanation.

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  39. but, Step 2, you're describing some pretty plain examples of superstitious behavior.

    I don't see any conflict in, say, a scientist who believes that something about the nature of God is disclosed as a result of his scientific project (which he believes as a result of his examination of conditions of the possibility of science). He doesn't have to confuse God's causal relationship to the entity he is studying with some spooky proximate cause.

    Also, as a side note: I'm inclined to think that the whole idea that science in general can be separated from metaphysical concerns is that science is broken up into so many disciplines. Individual disciplines seem kinda like, say, a guy that manufactures engine mounts all day but doesn't know how to change the oil on his car (or what all that pesky oil is for anyways).

    also, where'd Bob go?

    Another anecdote related to determinacy occurred to me. My 3 year old daughter calls every sort of condiment 'ketchup'. In order to figure out what she means by that word (because it could be any sort of condiment at all), I have to assume that she is using the term intentionally to refer to a determinate object (like the mayo or the mustard or the relish or what have you). I then have to discern from the context (where we are, what she is eating, what she has preferred with that in the past, and what is on the table) what she means by ketchup. It's not JUST context and the signifier 'ketchup', though! Involved in my determination of what she is asking for is the assumption that her little mind is determinately desiring a condiment of a particular kind, even though she calls all of them 'ketchup'.

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  40. @donjindra:

    I think your questions are missing the point. Yes, the physical sciences deal with physical phenomena and substances. That's why they are so called.

    But the point is that, in the process, they rely more, on mental activities and concepts which are, by their nature, not physical. For instance, if I believe in a false hypothesis, and you are (correctly) debating me that it has been falsified, you simply cannot refer to our brains to find out who's right. The laws of physics are not suspended, or malfunctioning, in my head.

    The only criteria which apply are valid/invalid, true/false, coherent/incoherent, and the like. And no one has come close to showing how these can be material in their nature or their causes.

    THAT is the problem: the anti-materialist position is not that science is being pursued wrongly, but that it is, in the minds of scientists, misunderstood in its nature (again, not in its practice). They are, in pursuing science, using concepts to which, under materialism, they have not right to use, but which have been snuck back in from classical metaphysics, through the back door. Bedecking themselves in stolen jewels, as it were.

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  41. @Step2:

    "I would say science does have a structural bias against many varieties of theism. In other words a scientist who claims his experiment failed because of an evil spirit, or that it worked because he used a religious ritual or object to bless the lab would not be "doing science" even if he was personally convinced of the truth of that portion of his explanation."

    1. This is puzzling. I am unclear what "varieties of theism" you have in mind, or what you mean by "theism". I suspect you might be assuming that any belief in the supernatural, in any sense, leads to the above statement. But it doesn't. That's an assumption which (common though it is) is just as invalid as assuming that all materialists are Marxist.

    There really is a difference between religion and magic, which was clear to people in earlier times. No one thought that, say, praying to even a demigod would cause what they prayed for to happen, e.g., recovery from illness.

    But those who use voodoo dolls do believe there is a true causal effect. Note that even into the 17th C, many people who were believers in science were also believers in magic. But the more religiously orthodox (and philosophical) a person was, the less likely he was to believe that magic really worked.

    Your example simply doesn't refer to any religious rites I am aware of, and seems to misunderstand the nature of those rites.

    2. In fact, the claims about magic - summoning spirits and performing magical rites - were exactly the sort of thing which scientists can and did test. And found them wanting. They didn't work.

    But if they'd worked? Would it have destroyed science if it had encountered oddities like this? Many don't think so; there are still parapsychologists* out there. Wouldn't scientists have had to come up with some way to fit the unexplainable into their system, if its occurrence were confirmed? (As they do with the behavior of electrons, for instance.)

    In short, you seem to be addressing a kind of caricature of religions and theology, and not the real things.

    *Not that I put any credence in these guys. But I cannot claim they are not studying their subject with the scientific method.

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  42. GeorgeLeSauvage,

    It is only a minor point, but I find your comments a little puzzling. I don't see why are you quite so keen to repudiate the paranormal (magic, posession, ghosts, miracles, and so on) entirely. It seems a rather strange for a Classical Theist or traditional Christian to take such a position. Like Chesterton, shouldn't we believe in the paranormal on principle?

    Not that we have to believe in every kind of class or particular paranormal entity or event, or accept many of the classifications and explanations given for them; but it just seems strange for me to that Classical Theists and Christians would treat all the ubiquitous claims of paranormal events and entities in the same way a naturalist/material would (accept strict miracles, presumably).

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  43. @Jeremy Taylor:

    "Repudiate" is a bit too strong for my attitude. However, I do come from a position of 100% skepticism about the paranormal, and most of that attitude remains. I don't see any reason a Christian need accept any of it, outside attested miracles. Even miracles, angels, and demons - while I accept that the Church knows more about them than I do - don't occupy much place in my thinking.

    This is not unknown to Catholicism. There are priests whose job it is to try to debunk miracles. (Even TV picked up on this fact, in The X-Files.)

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  44. Well, certain types of paranormal events or entities are testified to by Scripture or Church tradition. Not just proper miracles, but spirits, possession, demons, magic - in some sense - are attested from these sources.

    I'm a Platonic, and we have more an acknowledgment of such things than the Aristotelian, but I think the traditional levels of being do make it clear that there is a psychic or subtle realm directly above our corporeal realm. This realm in some sense contains and impinges on the corporeal (our psyches and souls are psychic or subtle themselves, of course), and is responsible for much that we consider paranormal.

    I don't consider the paranormal an important aspect of my religious thought - indeed, I think it more often than not better to be wary of it (not in the wary of whether it exists sense, but wary of its dangers), as Chesterton advised. I do think God's universe is more mysterious and sacred than the contemporary view allows, and what we are calling the paranormal has a role in that. As C.S Lewis reminded us, even the medieval cosmography had an important place for the Longaevi as an attestment to mysterious elements within the corporeal world (or crossing between it and the subtle world) I am a fan of Charles Fort and the John Michell. In many ways I find their position to be more genuinely open-minded than many of professional sceptics. A lot of sceptics seem simply sceptical of what goes against scientistic naturalism.

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  45. Your example simply doesn't refer to any religious rites I am aware of, and seems to misunderstand the nature of those rites.

    There are older "purification" rituals and customs such as ringing church bells (skip to page 4 of the pdf) to ward off thunderstorms that aren’t practiced anymore, but the same power is included in the Agnus Dei blessings.

    There are priests whose job it is to try to debunk miracles.

    They need to work a lot harder. :)

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  46. Step2,

    Would you say that a (hypothetical) chemist who scrupulously avoids walking under ladders on the way to work in the lab would (because he believes that he just might bring bad luck upon his research by walking under ladders), as a result, not be doing chemistry once he was in the lab?

    Clearly the act of avoiding the undersides of ladders is not doing chemistry, but nobody here, I wager, is confused about that.

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  47. Matt,

    To get sense out of Step2, or Don, would be a bona fide miracle.

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  48. Step2, you are failing to distinguish between petitions to God and causal actions. Only the latter would be involved in scientific enquiry, as only those entail a belief that certain actions - in themselves - bring about effects through supernatural means. The magician's spell causes the effect (perhaps through a spirit, perhaps directly). Prayer just requests help from God; a request which may or may not be granted, and the granting may or may not be supernatural.

    Thus the examples you cite are not relevant, as they don't claim to have the power to cause the help to occur. That puts them outside the question.

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  49. Jeremy Taylor:

    IIRC, the longaevi are more a literary than a philosophical belief. Something of a truancy is how he describes them. (Don't know where my copy of Discarded Image is, though.)

    But my "position" is really that I don't much care about this side. I confess I don't like it - never have. Stories which are deeply occult have always been distasteful to me. (I mean Lovecraft, not Rowling.) That is just a gut reaction, though. If it interests you, fine. Just don't call the devil, he may answer.

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  50. I'm not sure that is the best total description of the longaevi, even in Lewis's work. I think Lewis does think they represent a not insignificant aspect of the cosmos.

    I'm a Platonist, so I strongly stress the importance of one's imaginative (in the higher sense) and intellectual attunement to reality, especially the fact that creation reflects God and he can be viewed through it. The psychic and the subtle, which account for much of the paranormal - are not of prime importance in this attunement, but the corporeal still descends and is contained within the sublte and it is better to be attuned to it to some degree. In a more mundane sense this helps with reenchanting reality against the oppressive imagination of materialism.

    I agree with you about caution - not calling the devil. The paranormal can be dangerous. I think one of the problems with ignoring it is that this danger - for instance subtle or psychic residues that may cling to certain spots or objects or rituals - are ignored as well.

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  51. @Matt Sheean,
    It depends on whether or not the chemist puts his superstition into his requirements for performing the experiment or in his conclusion about the experiment. I tried to distinguish between what he subjectively believes and what he claims is objectively causally effective. If the chemist does claim it is objectively effective then he has to show how it is. What are the measurements that support his claim?

    @George LeSauvage
    The ringing bells were supposed to have a causal effect by driving away evil spirits who, typically under the direction of witches, were responsible for the thunderstorms. That the bells were also used as a prayer/petition doesn't diminish that aspect, the book excerpt details how this direct causal effect was eventually eliminated (except among Platonists apparently) despite popular resistance.

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  52. Step2,

    but why can't he claim it? Certainly his belief about ladders can be tested. He can document all of his trips to the office, some of them where he walks under ladders and some where he does not, and he can see if there is a correlation between his walking under ladders and 'bad luck' in the lab.

    I'm assuming that YOU don't believe such beliefs about ladders are silly because of what YOU have experienced in the world. If you had to appeal to more than inferences against the probability of such spooky causal relationships that would involve some rather Medieval thinking.

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  53. ugh, sorry, that last comment should have read

    "... you DO believe such beliefs about ladders are silly..."

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  54. Long time, no argue, dguller. I think your justification for uniqueness is a little off, which is why you're having trouble getting across the goal line.

    Since the Pure Act is the ground of all being, there is no perfection that it cannot possess. So if there were two Pure Act beings, one would have to possess a perfection the other does not have, but since Pure Act cannot lack any perfection, there cannot be more than one.

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