Sunday, January 5, 2014

Nagel on Nozick


Robert Nozick’s Anarchy, State, and Utopia has recently been reissued with a new Foreword by Thomas Nagel.  You can read the Foreword via Google books.  In it Nagel describes the situation in moral and political philosophy in analytic philosophy circles in the late 1960s.  A group of thinkers that included Nozick, Nagel, and other notables such as John Rawls and Judith Jarvis Thomson, who participated in a discussion group called the Society for Ethical and Legal Philosophy (SELF), reacted against certain then common tendencies.  First, as Nagel writes, they rejected the logical positivists’ “general skepticism about value judgments, interpreted as essentially subjective expressions of feeling.”  Second, they rejected utilitarianism in favor of “principles that limit the means that may be used to promote even the best ends.”

In place of these rejected ideas, this group of thinkers affirmed two general themes.  The first, according to Nagel, was “a belief in the reality of the moral domain, as an area in which there are real questions with right and wrong answers, and not just clashing subjective reactions.”  The second, he writes, was:

a belief that progress could be made toward discovering the right answers by formulating hypotheses at various levels of generality and subjecting them to confirmation or disconfirmation by the intuitive moral credibility of their various substantive consequences, as well as by their coherence in explaining those consequences.  The method depended on taking seriously the evidential value of strong moral intuitions about particular cases, including imaginary cases, and then looking behind those intuitions for general principles… which accounted for and justified them.

Some comments.  First, note that when Nagel speaks of testing hypotheses by reference to their “consequences,” he isn’t talking about advocating the moral theory known as consequentialism.  That should be clear enough from the fact that the group of thinkers in question rejected utilitarianism.  Concern with “consequences” doesn’t suffice to make one a consequentialist.  The idea was rather that if a moral hypothesis turns out to have absurd implications, that is reason to go back to the drawing board.  It is, more or less, an application of the method of reductio ad absurdum in the sphere of moral and political philosophy.

Second, Nagel’s remarks are a reminder of something I’ve emphasized myself, viz. that the “man-on-the-street’s” perception of liberal academics is not entirely correct.  Conservatives, especially, are often prone lazily to label those who defend left-of-center moral and political conclusions as “relativists,” “consequentialists,” “subjectivists,” etc.  Some of them are, but by no means all. 

Having said that, a third comment is that the crucial role that “intuitions” have played in recent academic philosophy in my view pretty much completely undermines the avowed aim of the thinkers in question of avoiding subjectivism.  To be sure, the word “intuition” has historically been used in different senses in philosophy, but the sense that prevails in recent analytic usage is not a respectable one.  As A. R. Lacey tells us in the entry on “intuition” in The Oxford Companion to Philosophy (edited by Ted Honderich), “recently… the term ‘intuition’ has been used for pre-philosophical thoughts or feelings, e.g. on morality, which emerge in thought experiments and are then used philosophically.”  For reasons given in a post some years ago, I would say that intuitions can only ever have at most a heuristic value and never the sort of “evidential value” required by the method employed by the group of thinkers described by Nagel.  By themselves appeals to intuition amount to nothing more than the “subjective expressions of feeling” the SELF crowd wanted to avoid.  The Rawlsian method of “reflective equilibrium” doesn’t change this one bit; it only makes of the subjective expression of feeling a systematic and elegant expression.

It is no surprise, then, that the work of the SELF thinkers almost always tended (what are the odds?) to reflect the “strong moral intuitions” (i.e. very deeply ingrained prejudices) of the average American college professor.  Almost but not always, Nozick’s strongly libertarian position in Anarchy State, and Utopia being a famous exception.  Nagel nicely summarizes two key themes of Nozick’s book.  First:

Things or actions that may be beneficial do not come into existence out of nowhere; they often, in [Nozick’s] words, “come already tied to people who have entitlements over them … people who therefore may decide for themselves to whom they will give the thing and on what grounds.”

And second:

If some flourish and others are left behind, there is nothing wrong in that, nothing that the state may use its power forcibly to correct.  As Nozick says repeatedly, it is no more wrong than the fact that A cannot marry B because B prefers to marry C.  A may be miserable, but no one has suffered a wrong or an injustice.  There is no moral presumption in favor of equality; the separateness of persons is the basis of the moral order.

End quote.  Though I am no longer a libertarian, I still think that there is much truth in these two basic ideas, even if they need to be qualified.  As I explained in a post on my apostasy from libertarianism, what led me to find libertarianism convincing for a time were two main lines of argument, a negative one and a positive one.  The negative line of argument was that Hayek’s and Nozick’s critiques of the very idea of social justice destroyed any egalitarian (or other) justification for redistributing wealth via taxation.  The positive line of argument was that Nozick’s and Rothbard’s critiques of taxation showed that such redistribution was not only unjustified but positively unjust, and thus that no taxation at all was legitimate except perhaps what was necessary to fund the minimal state.  The positive line of argument was, essentially, too extreme an interpretation of the very real insight contained in the first of the Nozickian themes identified by Nagel.  The negative line of argument was, essentially, too extreme an interpretation of the very real insight contained in the second Nozickian theme.

For reasons I have spelled out at some length in my Social Philosophy and Policy article “Classical Natural Law Theory, Property Rights, and Taxation,” from the point of view of Aristotelian-Thomistic natural law theory, rights have a teleological foundation, and the specific ends for which property rights exist prevent our claim over our resources from being so strong that taxation per se is unjust.  It is not per se unjust, and it is not per se unjust even for some purposes that go beyond the minimal state.  However, especially in light of the fact that most of the value of resources derives (as libertarians rightly emphasize) from our labor and ingenuity rather than from raw materials themselves, there is a very strong presumption against taxation.  It is also a presumption that is, in my view, much less frequently overridden than left-of-center people suppose.  So though it goes too far to say that all taxation is in principle unjust, I think it correct to say that much taxation is in fact unjust.  Hence there is much truth in the first Nozickian theme.

There is also much truth in the second Nozickian theme.  Left-of-center types commonly conflate issues of poverty with issues of inequality, but they are not the same thing.  Suppose everyone had a standard of living at least equal to that of your typical middle manager, but some people lived like Bill Gates, Richard Branson, or Jeff Bezos.  You’d have no poverty to speak of but still have massive inequality.  Would this be unjust?  I say that it would not be the slightest bit unjust, and I have yet to see a good argument to the contrary.  I think the libertarian is absolutely correct to see claims of injustice here as motivated by envy, and thus as motivated by a serious vice rather than by a concern for morality.

Poverty is different, and can be the result of injustice.  However, it need not be, and there is certainly way too much sloppy thinking about the issue.  The word “poverty” covers a variety of complex phenomena.  What counts as poverty in a First World country is very different from what counts as poverty in a Third World country.  Glib talk about the “causes of poverty” gives the impression that the possession of wealth is the default state of human beings, from which they must somehow have been pushed (by whom?) if they are not in it -- and that is the reverse of the truth.  “The poor,” particularly in a First World context, do not necessarily comprise a stable group with the same members over time.  Where individuals or families do tend to stay poor over time, in First World countries the reasons have mostly to do with social pathologies like the absence of fathers.  In Third World countries the reasons have primarily to do with corrupt governments and the absence of stable market structures.  And so forth. 

Especially in First World countries, it is very difficult to determine to what extent, if any, poverty can be attributed to any particular unjust actions, such as refusal to pay a just wage.   (Which would be what, exactly?  I also have yet to see a good argument here.  That there can in principle be such a thing as an unjust wage pretty clearly follows from natural law theory, for reasons I give in the paper referred to above.  But determining in practice exactly when a wage is strictly unjust is in my view very difficult.)

It would be nice if these issues could be settled with simple-minded slogans -- “Taxation is theft!,” “Share the wealth!,” “Pay a living wage!” etc. -- but they can’t be.  Where economic matters are concerned, things are very messy, and there is in my view way too much self-righteous posturing and too little serious, rigorous thinking, among liberals, socialists, distributists, social democrats, and many libertarians and conservatives too.  In part because of the complexities involved, though, I think that while it goes too far to say that government cannot even in principle act to remedy economic difficulties, there is also a strong presumption against regarding some particular economic difficulty as the result of an injustice or otherwise within the purview of government action. 

Now, the presumptions in question -- against taxation and against government intervention in the economy -- can be overridden.  But especially when we factor in the principle of subsidiarity, I think that classical natural law theory favors a broadly right-of-center approach to economic matters rather than a left-of-center approach -- certainly not libertarian, but closer to that than to egalitarian liberalism.  Again, see the paper referred to above for the details.

Nagel also comments on the overall quality of Nozick’s book:

The book is a dialectical feast, displaying the agility of an intelligence of the highest order.  It is also written in an irresistible style and voice, an audible speaking voice full of energy and drive.  And it is often very funny. 

I agree completely.  There are two general criteria by which one might regard a philosophy book as good.  One might think it simply gets things basically right, that it presents views that are true and gives good and clear arguments for them.  Or one might think that it does not get things right but nevertheless presents views and arguments that are of philosophical interest -- errors, perhaps, but errors from which we can nevertheless learn much.  Some great works of philosophy, like Descartes’ Meditations and Leibniz’s Monadology, are of the latter sort, and so is Nozick’s Anarchy, State, and Utopia.  And to some extent it get things right too.

247 comments:

  1. Mr. Green,

    I agree that my use of the term 'unjust' was idiosyncratic. I am fine with saying merely that the minimum wage won't achieve the practical ends that Chad thinks it will. It is fine if justice has not yet entered into the equation, but it seems to me that we will have not even succeeded in making these employees' lives more livable. Whatever is Just, we have not moved any closer to it.

    As for McDuck, I have difficulty with this. Charity seems to me to be a mark of virtue. McDuck, if he is virtuous, will, in the case of (a) or (b) pay Donald more (whether it is charity or obligatory). Perhaps it is morally acceptable for him to pay Donald the same as everybody else, even though it causes hardship for Donald (if it is not acceptable, why?). If he insisted that for these reasons he would not pay Donald a livable wage, I would think McDuck to be a bit too pedantic to be genuinely decent. This is the difficulty for me in talking about the morality of wages so abstractly, since the charitable action may be technically supererogatory but normative for the virtuous person. The man who does not lay down his life for his friends may still have loved them, but not perfectly.

    Those are my crudely formed thoughts so far.

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  2. In the interest of maximizing the absurdity of the thought experiment, I would suggest Donald legally change his name to The Donald, go into the resort and casino construction business, star on a TV show where he fires people, and get a really hideous combover. He will immediately transform from a moocher into a circus ringleader/job creator.

    Back on topic, Chad has already linked indirectly to the CEPR report, but the executive summary deserves to be mentioned again:
    "The employment effect of the minimum wage is one of the most studied topics in all of economics. This report examines the most recent wave of this research – roughly since 2000 – to determine the best current estimates of the impact of increases in the minimum wage on the employment prospects of low-wage workers. The weight of that evidence points to little or no employment response to modest increases in the minimum wage. The report reviews evidence on eleven possible adjustments to minimum wage increases that may help to explain why the measured employment effects are so consistently small. The strongest evidence suggests that the most important channels of adjustment are: reductions in labor turnover; improvements in organizational efficiency; reductions in wages of higher earners ("wage compression"); and small price increases. Given the relatively small cost to employers of modest increases in the minimum wage, these adjustment mechanisms appear to be more than sufficient to avoid employment losses, even for employers with a large share of low-wage workers "

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  3. little or no employment response to modest increases in the minimum wage.

    What about the change from there being no minimum wage to there being one?

    In the interest of thought experiment comprehensiveness, let's ask one small question for the minimum wage setters. Let's grant, as a hypothesis that the state setting a minimum wage has little overall (that is, accumulative statistical) change in employment - which means most employers don't fire people from the law change. (And let's set aside just for the moment the question of how many employers don't hire a new employee that they would have hired had the law not changed, and how to get the implications and meaning of those "no changes" in employment.) Let's look just at the few guys in Toledo who are in fact laid off because their employers can no longer afford their labor costs. These guys have labor that is worth something, but not worth the minimum wage, so they are no longer employable except at a loss, so no new employer will take them on (no new employer has, yet, any moral obligation toward them to require said employer in charity to consider paying them more than they are worth economically). Effectively, the state's changing the law has taken their productive work away from them. Is this morally acceptable?

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  4. "Chad has already linked indirectly to the CEPR report, but the executive summary deserves to be mentioned again:"

    Likewise, since you presumably missed it:

    "We review the burgeoning literature on the employment effects of minimum wages - in the United States and other countries - that was spurred by the new minimum wage research beginning in the early 1990s. Our review indicates that there is a wide range of existing estimates and, accordingly, a lack of consensus about the overall effects on low-wage employment of an increase in the minimum wage. However, the oft-stated assertion that recent research fails to support the traditional view that the minimum wage reduces the employment of low-wage workers is clearly incorrect. A sizable majority of the studies surveyed in this monograph give a relatively consistent (although not always statistically significant) indication of negative employment effects of minimum wages. In addition, among the papers we view as providing the most credible evidence, almost all point to negative employment effects, both for the United States as well as for many other countries. Two other important conclusions emerge from our review. First, we see very few - if any - studies that provide convincing evidence of positive employment effects of minimum wages, especially from those studies that focus on the broader groups (rather than a narrow industry) for which the competitive model predicts disemployment effects. Second, the studies that focus on the least-skilled groups provide relatively overwhelming evidence of stronger disemployment effects for these groups."

    http://www.nber.org/papers/w12663

    The pitfalls of a naive or biased statistical analysis are well known, and as with all matters of political or social controversy, there are always studies on both sides, drawing opposing conclusions. You already know this of course - Naturalists publish papers drawing very different conclusions to Theists, for example. You should never, ever, listen to just one side on any issue.

    Artificially raising the price of any good causes an excess of supply and a shortfall in demand. (Except in a few exceptional cases like Giffen goods, which labour is not.) It can manifest in many different ways, there being a multitude of methods for trying to get round the problem, but as a matter of simple arithmetic it must appear somewhere. If you want to tell me it doesn't, you need to give a plausible explanation as to how, and what is going on.

    Based on a quick skim, the study appears to be a data dredge. Data is collected and a regression model is fitted to it, with the various coefficients interpreted as conclusive. This is a highly dangerous procedure, with major risks of picking up spurious correlations and missing confounders, if the model is not well-specified. I wouldn't trust it even if I agreed with it. As I said earlier, I haven't dug into it in enough detail to figure out what is going on, but this seems the most likely explanation. The authors appear to have a pre-existing agenda - especially with all the citations to other studies dismissed as 'implausible'. Maybe there's something to it, but the way it's written, I'm not motivated to check.

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  5. I typed a comment, but it disappeared. re: the quote from the CEPR report, "reductions in labor turnover" seems to me to contradict the claim "little or no employment response". Wage compression is also an issue. In the grocery business, the 'boxperson' is now being paid more and the produce clerk with many skills and much seniority is being paid $2-3 less an hour.

    I made an error in my response to Green as well. I should not have said "causes hardship for Donald". Whatever has caused Donald's difficulties, it was not getting a job with McDuck (presumably he has taken the job in order to alleviate those difficulties). At any rate, the McDuck riddle seems to have been posed more for amusement than its probative value.

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  6. 1. Work is an obligation that arises from society: it is a social obligation. The obligation is fore the sake of society, not society for the sake of the obligation (to work).

    2. Work is a means. To make it an end is irrational and borderline idolatry and in effect slavery.

    Both work and play can be defined as expenditures of energy. The difference, however, is that work is done for the sake of something else whereas play is done (is the expenditure of energy) for its own sake.

    Therefore work literally doesn't make sense when it's converted into an end, because it isn't work anymore. What, then, does it become? Certainly not play. What, then, would obliging individuals to work for working's sake alone constitute? Slavery and, of course, since the whole activity is irrational it is also deeply unnatural and will produce enormous social disorders; in fact, it will debase and threaten the possibility of human society as such, because it vitiates the good of society. It will result in wide scale depression at the least and an increasing unraveling of the social order because the good of society is being leveraged and no longer taking its effect, being subordinated to productivity for its own sake. This results in a collapse of culture.

    Anybody seeing a familiar pattern here?

    The final unit and bulwark of society is, of course, the family. But if this too is subordinated to the case of work or productivity (as it is in modern neoliberal economics as basically nothing more than a human labour and consumer factory) then finally even the good of the family will begin to disappear and be depleted to the point of pointlessness.

    Anyone else hearing something here that sounds familiar?

    The Protestant Work Ethic, which is actually deeply absurd and unethical, has powerfully ingrained itself into a lot of Conservative thinking. The Protestants treated work almost like a Confessional and means of expiating guilt and sins, which is why Protestant societies seem so strange in insisting on salvation through faith alone while acting as if salvation is ever through works alone.

    People will be more happy and society and culture will improve when work is once again treated rationally. There is a lot of wisdom in the saying, "Work hard, play hard".

    If you eliminate 'play' from the work equation and obligation - and the highest form of human 'playing' is found in social activity, which is why direct competition lends itself so nicely to 'play' (e.g. sports most obviously) then you make working irrational. We are obviously by nature disinclined to irrational or mindless activity. So now a society will not only feel obliged to make lazy people fulfill their fair share and due by trying to coerce them into working, it will also increasingly have to deal with people who's productive potential is obviously high and who do waste away their times or days in idleness but resist having their existence subordinated to a rank stupidity and a freakish Protestant fetish and quasi-guilt trip.

    There is a certain minimum social obligation to work - this cannot be doubted and is indeed Catholic doctrine; however, the rationale for that obligation must never be lost sight of. You can't figure out what that obligation consists in if you don't know the purpose it is trying to serve.

    And ultimately that purpose is the general happiness of man, which is strikingly Constitutional and, therefore, in so many ways ought really to be a Conservative ideal.

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  7. Correction,

    "...people who's productive potential is obviously high and do *NOT* waste their time or days in idleness..."

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  8. @Matt Sheean:

    "Wage compression is also an issue."

    Yep. So are those "small price increases."

    "At any rate, the McDuck riddle seems to have been posed more for amusement than its probative value."

    The riddle does seem to me to suffer from some unfortunate flaws even on the strictly moral question.

    First of all, the sheer fact that Donald isn't able to support his family at his current wage surely imposes no obligation on McDuck. At the very least, McDuck has to be aware of that fact (or in a position in which he could reasonably be expected to become so) before he's obliged to do anything about it.

    So let's assume he knows. Well, how and when did he find out? Did Donald already accept the job at the wage McDuck offered, or did Donald explain his circumstances to McDuck before he was hired (and if so, how and why)? It seems to me that McDuck's obligations (charitable and otherwise) might be different depending on the answer to that question.

    Second, what does it mean for McDuck to pay Donald a higher wage? Is the proposal that McDuck pay only Donald a higher wage, or that he increase wages across the board for all employees who do the same job as Donald? The former seems unfair to the other employees, and the latter places a higher burden on McDuck than we were being asked to consider. Or is the proposal that Donald be promoted to a higher-paying position, or receive an early (or unusually large) "merit increase," or what? These options also seem unfair to the other employees.

    Third, why are wages the only factor in question? Even if Donald has no other recourse, McDuck is surely in a position to offer Donald gifts and/or short-term no-interest loans; our family business has done those things for employees many times. Surely the availability of such options affects what McDuck might or might not be obliged to do specifically with Donald's wages.

    I could go on. The bottom line is that this "very specific situation" is not specific enough for me to say whether McDuck has any obligation (charitable or otherwise) to pay Donald any specific wage—although I would certainly say that if McDuck knows about Donald's situation he may well be obliged to try to help somehow as a matter of charity.

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  9. @ Scott,

    " Even if Donald has no other recourse, McDuck is surely in a position to offer Donald gifts and/or short-term no-interest loans..."

    Right on the money; and pity the employer who does not think that offering employees in times of duress things like no interest loans is not an enormous benefit to their employees or devoid of possible benefits for the company itself. It can build loyalty and commitment and improve a company's overall reputation in the community when things like this or done. It spares the poor employee from hunting around for loans (the very activity hurts your credit rating) and the burden of paying interest on that loan.

    Banks are almost useless from a social point of view: they are normally only going to lend you money generously when you don't actually need and are likely to call in your debts with ferocity when it appears to them you are, in fact, in real economic hardship or trouble. This really makes modern lending institutions almost completely useless at least from the perspective of individual and ordinary citizens: in your exact time of direst need for institutions that lend money, these institutions are the most likely to refuse to alleviate that need. Again, it makes banks on this level almost perfectly useless and quite possibly a massive social liability and source of obvious imbalances.

    Back more to the point, though, employers would stand to gain from listening to Aristotle when he talks about human success and happiness being at bottom just the full realization of our natural powers or capabilities. Human beings naturally want and desire to be productive. Therefore having a keen eye for your workers' aptitudes can translate into very real competitive advantages, otherwise difficult to detect 'on paper' or in a general theory, which can scarcely predict the likelihood or occurrence of such things across the whole board of the productive side of the economy.

    In reverse, we can also begin to understand why some individuals seem so lethargic or detached from their work: they are probably not realizing even remotely their potential and, to the extent they are denied by the necessity to earn enough money to live even remotely a dignified human life, the work being done is something of a tax in itself.

    Again. If the archer does not have a target, where is he to shoot? When our demands on people become increasingly irrational you are going to see a lot of disorders and bizarre expressions of the human spirit desperately trying to realize something of itself. This can lead to radicalism and even misguided revolution in desperation.

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  10. William,

    Your comment about the Protestant work ethic was very much on point. Max Weber's thesis is something that conservative Catholics really don't engage. Capitalism is essentially Protestant, and it only functions as long as society labors under the "freakish Protestant fetish and quasi-guilt trip". Catholicism and capitalism are strange bedfellows, to say the least.

    It is telling that so many today, when they hear about the sin of sloth, think that it pertains to laziness and unproductivity in one's secular career--when its subject is the exact opposite. Protestantism's heresies continue to poison the culture.

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  11. @rank sophist:

    "Max Weber's thesis is something that conservative Catholics really don't engage. Capitalism is essentially Protestant[.]"

    That second sentence essentially is Weber's thesis, and you've not only just "engage[d]" it but swallowed it hook, line, and sinker.

    "[I]t only functions as long as society labors under the 'freakish Protestant fetish and quasi-guilt trip'."

    I'm not quite sure what you think "capitalism" is, but nothing whatsoever about it as an economic system depends on treating work as an end in itself. The "Protestant fetish" was responsible only for reviving the failed "labor theory of value," which had already been refuted by the Scholastics.

    "Catholicism and capitalism are strange bedfellows, to say the least."

    Not really. That notion has pretty much the same origins, and is just as indefensible, as the notions that the medieval Church opposed science and believe in a flat Earth. You'll have no trouble finding scholars (including conservative Catholics) who think Weber was wrong and contend that the real "origin of the spirit of capitalism" is in Scholasticism.

    Apropos of the subject matter of (part of) this thread, Thomas Woods has the following to say (the full article is also of interest and relevance):

    On the issue of the "just wage," which has been the source of so much contention in Catholic circles over the past century, the Late Scholastics contended that a wage rate mutually agreed upon had to be just. According to Luis de Molina (1535—1600), an employer was "only obliged to pay [the laborer] the just wage for his services considering all the attendant circumstances, not what is sufficient for his sustenance and much less for the maintenance of his children and family." Domingo de Soto (1494—1570) argued that "if they freely accepted this salary for their job, it must be just," and held that "no injury is done to those who gave their consent." His advice to unhappy employees was simple: "[I]f you do not want to serve for that salary, leave!"

    I quote this passage not because Luis de Molina and Domingo de Soto are infallible authorities but because their statements are evidence that capitalism isn't an outgrowth of Protestantism. Their moral and economic views may be right or wrong, but I'm pretty sure they didn't get them from Calvinism.

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  12. (Oops, "believed in a flat Earth.")

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  13. (Oops again, lost a link for want of an equals sign in my HTML. Thomas Woods actually has this to say.)

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  14. I do wish Austrian School partisans, as much as I prefer them to the neoclassicals, wouldn't use the term economics as if their views of economics was the undoubted truth.

    Anyway, NiV (and perhaps others) are using the phrase material goods ambiguously.

    Yes, for the mystic, saint and ascetic real poverty is not necessarily a problem. It may even be a benefit. But for most people material goods do matter, in the sense that grinding poverty is a spiritually and emotionally weakening situation. But this does not mean that material goods in the sense of an ever increasing amount of consumer goods and proliferating electro-magnetic gadgets are just as necessary to the individual. It doesn't even mean that material goods in this sense are not a bad thing, perhaps as bad, in some instances, as real poverty.

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  15. In reverse, we can also begin to understand why some individuals seem so lethargic or detached from their work: they are probably not realizing even remotely their potential and, to the extent they are denied by the necessity to earn enough money to live even remotely a dignified human life, the work being done is something of a tax in itself.

    Oh, that is so not true.

    I work in an office, where there are certain people (a secretary here, another office worker there) who sit on their cans as much as they can get away with, because they don't want to work. The work is as engaging as office work can be, given that it involves paperwork. Most people in the office find it a human pursuit.

    There is a great story about a cabbie who was barely making it, and decided (on the basis of a life-changing conversation) to change his work. But he didn't change the fact that he is a cabbie, he changed his attitude to it: he shined his car, vacuumed it, greeted customers with a smile, had hot coffee and cold drinks available, along with 2 newspapers and a couple of magazines, and asked them if they wanted to listen to the radio and if so what station. He started getting huge tips and repeat customers and made himself very successful. Simply by deciding to treat his work as dignified and of worth because he has the opportunity to treat humans like humans.

    And since almost every job has that possibility (other than torturer), the dignity generally comes from the worker, not simply from the work. At least in this country, most people who treat their current job the way this cabbie treated his will soon find his way to opportunities to use more of his talents (if he has more) for higher productivity and thence for better pay. And in the meantime will be much happier in his work.

    People will be more happy and society and culture will improve when work is once again treated rationally. There is a lot of wisdom in the saying, "Work hard, play hard".

    If you eliminate 'play' from the work equation and obligation - and the highest form of human 'playing' is found in social activity,


    William, you seem to have left out of your analysis any mention of the third and most important of the 3 categories of activity. There is recreation, work, and LEISURE. Leisure is the sort of activity that pertains to the highest element of man, especially worship of God, the study of truth, the contemplation of God and His goodness, and the sharing of that with a friend. These are supposed to be the end for the sake of which all the rest are ordered.

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  16. In reverse, we can also begin to understand why some individuals seem so lethargic or detached from their work: they are probably not realizing even remotely their potential and, to the extent they are denied by the necessity to earn enough money to live even remotely a dignified human life, the work being done is something of a tax in itself.

    Oh, that is so not true.

    I work in an office, where there are certain people (a secretary here, another office worker there) who sit on their cans as much as they can get away with, because they don't want to work. The work is as engaging as office work can be, given that it involves paperwork. Most people in the office find it a human pursuit.

    There is a great story about a cabbie who was barely making it, and decided (on the basis of a life-changing conversation) to change his work. But he didn't change the fact that he is a cabbie, he changed his attitude to it: he shined his car, vacuumed it, greeted customers with a smile, had hot coffee and cold drinks available, along with 2 newspapers and a couple of magazines, and asked them if they wanted to listen to the radio and if so what station. He started getting huge tips and repeat customers and made himself very successful. Simply by deciding to treat his work as dignified and of worth because he has the opportunity to treat humans like humans.

    And since almost every job has that possibility (other than torturer), the dignity generally comes from the worker, not simply from the work. At least in this country, most people who treat their current job the way this cabbie treated his will soon find his way to opportunities to use more of his talents (if he has more) for higher productivity and thence for better pay. And in the meantime will be much happier in his work.

    People will be more happy and society and culture will improve when work is once again treated rationally. There is a lot of wisdom in the saying, "Work hard, play hard".

    If you eliminate 'play' from the work equation and obligation - and the highest form of human 'playing' is found in social activity,


    William, you seem to have left out of your analysis any mention of the third and most important of the 3 categories of activity. There is recreation, work, and LEISURE. Leisure is the sort of activity that pertains to the highest element of man, especially worship of God, the study of truth, the contemplation of God and His goodness, and the sharing of that with a friend. These are supposed to be the end for the sake of which all the rest are ordered.

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  17. NiV: Is it wrong to give the poor material rather than spiritual charity?

    It could be. But material charity is spiritually good — for the giver. And material goods can be conducive to spiritual welfare, obviously. That's why I didn't say material goods were of no importance, just not of ultimate importance. And the spiritual isn't for the material; human beings by nature have both, but if you have to choose — and in this life, sometimes you do — spiritual trumps material.

    That could prove a rather popular line of thought with the corporate executives - "we cut your pay again to give you a better chance at heaven - remember, the last shall be first!"

    Sure. Like you could kill babies so they go to heaven before they have a chance to commit any sins. Of course, that wouldn't do you any good. (Darn, there's always a catch!)

    This world is not just a badly-flawed antechamber to heaven, that we must struggle through on the way there, it is the perfect *centrepiece* of creation. Do please try to take it seriously.

    I guess there is way to interpret that as being correct, but on an even more obvious interpretation, yes, this world is indeed flawed. Which is why I take it deadly seriously.

    "Eliminating poverty" is not our goal in life. If God wanted poverty to be eliminated, He'd just say the word. Our goal in life is to learn to be selfless. Of course, we can do this by finding people in need and giving to them (or, when we are poor, by finding those who will give to us and being grateful); and not only in the realm of material poverty. And if we do this, a funny thing seems to happen: apparently acting virtuously seems often to have the overall result of reducing evil in the world! But it is very important not confuse the ends with the means. We do not do things that drive out evil and call them good. We do things that are good and discover that they drive out evil.

    You should be.

    Well, not everyone can be interested in everything. (Not even in everything worthwhile. (If I were an economist, I'd point out that it's just as well, since that would make everyone a jack of all interests, master of none.) And hence economists need to start from solid moral foundations, so someone like me can be justified in trusting what they say.) I'd also quibble that economics isn't part of how the world works, it's a description of the results of the individual actions of individual people... actions that can be evaluated morally.

    And you may rest comforted that my hopes remain undashed. There will always be some poorer than others, and people who will complain about it, but the poor in the absolute, Biblical sense should be rare by the end of the century. And that's a good thing!

    There are a lot of worrying things that might happen in the world. Life by the end of the century could very easily be drastically different. Or, hey, it might not — we don't know. And you have a good point about relative poverty.


    ———————————————————————


    NiV: As a matter of trade, the way it works is [...]

    Yes, that is how it does work. But how should it work? (That was a good and clear explantion, though.)

    There must be a way to determine whether a contract would be moral in the first place. A way to determine whether "more goods" would be better before we decide to produce them. A way to determine whether McDuck can be forced to make "charitable" donations (say, if they would improve the economy overall).

    It is the paradox of free will - it is not virtuous unless it is done freely, so you have to allow people the freedom to sin in order for virtue to exist.

    Literally, that implies anarchy. But of course, there are pragmatic lines to be drawn. Some lines are going to have to be drawn through economic activity — the question is where and why.

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  18. Matt Sheean: I agree that my use of the term 'unjust' was idiosyncratic. I am fine with saying merely that the minimum wage won't achieve the practical ends that Chad thinks it will. [...] Whatever is Just, we have not moved any closer to it.

    Fair enough. And even if the evidence were in favour of minimum-wage laws, that wouldn't automatically prove them just either.


    McDuck, if he is virtuous, will, in the case of (a) or (b) pay Donald more (whether it is charity or obligatory). Perhaps it is morally acceptable for him to pay Donald the same as everybody else, even though it causes hardship for Donald (if it is not acceptable, why?).

    Well, it is at least problematic because Donald is providing diligent full-time work. (What qualifies as "full-time" is another question, but take it as an amount where it would be unreasonable to demand more from him on a regular basis.) It would be unjust to require him to work more, so if it's not unjust to underpay him, what is he to do? Maybe he is obliged to get a better-paying job instead, if there is one. If there isn't, someone might give him charity (great!). If not, is nobody obliged to do anything other than sit around and say, "Gee, too bad for Donald"?

    This is the difficulty for me in talking about the morality of wages so abstractly, since the charitable action may be technically supererogatory but normative for the virtuous person. The man who does not lay down his life for his friends may still have loved them, but not perfectly.

    Would it be correct to present this view as: someone might not be obligated to help Donald out of justice, but might be obligated out of mercy? (Then the problem is "who?", but it seems quite plausible that McDuck might justly pay Donald the lower wage if he helps out through non-wage donations.)

    ———————————————————————

    Scott: Third, why are wages the only factor in question?

    Mainly because I'm looking for arguments for what is a just wage. If it turns out that wages can be just yet insufficient, then there obviously are further questions, but we have to start somewhere.

    Or is the proposal that Donald be promoted to a higher-paying position, or receive an early (or unusually large) "merit increase," or what? These options also seem unfair to the other employees.

    Why are these possibilities unfair? Or rather — since they are obviously unfair in certain respects — what makes these respects relevant, or more important than other unfairnesses? (If the other employees are managing just fine, but Donald isn't, that clearly is a type of unfairness, and more important than, say, lack of fairness in who gets to park closest to the door.)

    It seems to me that McDuck's obligations (charitable and otherwise) might be different depending on the answer to that question. [...] Even if Donald has no other recourse, McDuck is surely in a position to offer Donald gifts and/or short-term no-interest loans; [...] The bottom line is that this "very specific situation" is not specific enough for me to say whether McDuck has any obligation (charitable or otherwise) to pay Donald any specific wage

    Those are excellent points — by all means pick some specifics and answer accordingly. Naturally, I am hoping that eventually will come enough details to mount a reasonable case one way or the other, but it's also possible that the answer may ultimately be, "it's just too complex to account for all the different factors." Of course that poses a serious problem for a moral approach. (Is "try not to do anything too blatantly evil" really the best we can do?)

    although I would certainly say that if McDuck knows about Donald's situation he may well be obliged to try to help somehow as a matter of charity.

    Similar to Matt, would you argue for an obligation of mercy if not of justice? That sounds like a promising line to pursue.

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  19. Scott,

    That second sentence essentially is Weber's thesis, and you've not only just "engage[d]" it but swallowed it hook, line, and sinker.

    I am neither a conservative nor a Catholic. I have no political alliance, and my sympathies lie with the Orthodox.

    I'm not quite sure what you think "capitalism" is, but nothing whatsoever about it as an economic system depends on treating work as an end in itself. The "Protestant fetish" was responsible only for reviving the failed "labor theory of value," which had already been refuted by the Scholastics.

    Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production and the labor are provided by separate people, and it functions only so long as labor is seen as a virtue. Laborers naturally desire to work intermittently at best--only enough to secure their own livelihoods, and no more. Slavery and forced labor were previous solutions to this problem, but capitalism could not appeal to them. It relied on the total dispossession of the lower clases by the rich, and on the banning of homelessness and begging and so forth, to guarantee labor (Chesterton outlines this in The True History of the Tramp). This unnatural state of affairs does not work for very long unless the proletariat is complicit--which is where the deification of labor comes in.

    As for the labor theory of value, to say that Aquinas rejected it is rash at best. Aquinas's economic theory is unsystematic and vague, and (particularly in the Commentary on the Ethics) he seems to suggest that price is in part determined by labor, in part by usefulness.

    I quote this passage not because Luis de Molina and Domingo de Soto are infallible authorities but because their statements are evidence that capitalism isn't an outgrowth of Protestantism. Their moral and economic views may be right or wrong, but I'm pretty sure they didn't get them from Calvinism.

    The primacy of consent is not an inherently capitalist belief. As I said, capitalism is merely the system in which some own and others work. Placing justice in consent stems from individualism, which was taking root (from my reading) even in Scotus's time.

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  20. @Mr. Green:

    "Mainly because I'm looking for arguments for what is a just wage."

    Well, I don't know that I have much more to add on that subject. I've already said that I think the wage agreed by the employer and employee is, by presumption, a just wage in the absence of such factors as coercion, fraud, nondisclosure, and mistake. Deciding when these factors are involved is not simple (as the history of the common law of contracts will attest) but we're not starting in a vacuum.

    (I'm not, of course, suggesting that the common law of contracts is necessarily the place to go for redress, just that it's a good place to start if we want to understand what these factors look like in real life. The remedies available in contract law might or might not suffice.)

    "Similar to Matt, would you argue for an obligation of mercy if not of justice?"

    I've already done so, more or less, but I haven't pursued the point further because it's a bit beside the point as far as a just wage is concerned. As I've said, so far as I can see, McDuck qua employer has no obligation in justice to pay Donald a higher wage than he and Donald have agreed (again, assuming the absence of those other factors). If he has additional obligations in charity or mercy (as I would say he does), then he has them not because he's Donald's "employer" but because he's a human being in proximity to Donald's plight and is in a position to assist him. (And again, options like gifts and short-term interest-free loans are available.) His fellow employees, his friends, his family, and so forth are (at least) as responsible in general for looking out for him as his "employer" is; the only thing unique about McDuck, so far as I can see, is that by hypothesis he has much greater means at his disposal.

    Again, none of this seems to me to be especially relevant to the question of a just wage. Moreover, even if we can imagine some weird set of circumstances under which McDuck can't give or lend Donald any money and his only recourse is to add it to his paycheck, the extra money still needn't be an official part of his wage—and even if it is, that wouldn't suffice to make the original wage unjust.

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  21. I think I'm pretty much with Scott. The only quibble I'd have is that it seems to me that some work is such that the wage will necessarily be at least some amount in order to reasonably compensate the employee. Whatever this work is, the employee could agree to less than the worth of their labor without coercion, etc., but just because they were a bit dimwitted or something. I've made this mistake before with freelance work. My wife was angry with me, "you agreed to WHAT AMOUNT?!" she said. I'm inclined to think that her intuitions were correct, that I really did agree to a wage that, whether or not it was just, it was not actually the value of the work I was doing. I suppose, though, I should just have resisted agreeing on that price, but even then I think I would not be agreeing because the wage did not match the work. I might have gone on too long about this, though, and it falls under what you would call "mistake".

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  22. @rank sophist:

    "As for the labor theory of value, to say that Aquinas rejected it is rash at best."

    Well, then, it's probably a good thing I didn't say it. ;-)

    I also, unsurprisingly, disagree with your definition of capitalism, but I think we may as well lock the barn door after that dead horse and let water under the bridge gather no moss.

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  23. @Matt Sheean:

    "[I]t falls under what you would call 'mistake'."

    Yeah, I agree—and a more extreme case in which someone simply wasn't capable of evaluating his own work (say because of some mental disability) would probably fall under something like "incompetence."

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  24. Scott,

    Well, then, it's probably a good thing I didn't say it. ;-)

    Well, you did say that the scholastics refuted the labor theory of value, and your link explicitly argues that Aquinas rejected it. You can forgive me for assuming.

    I also, unsurprisingly, disagree with your definition of capitalism, but I think we may as well lock the barn door after that dead horse and let water under the bridge gather no moss.

    I was working with Pius XI's definition of capitalism as "that economic system, wherein, generally, some provide capital while others provide labor for a joint economic activity." Pius XI seems to suggest that this is the essential constitution of capitalism. But, if you want to drop it, we'll drop it.

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  25. Mr Green,

    "But material charity is spiritually good — for the giver."

    And the receiver?

    One of the harder things for a moral person to do is to accept charity gracefully. There is always a feeling that one doesn't deserve it, or that it an admission of a culpable failure. The immoral, on the other hand, seem to regard charity as their right.

    But is undeserved receiving spiritually bad for somebody? And if so, should we do it?

    "Sure. Like you could kill babies so they go to heaven before they have a chance to commit any sins. Of course, that wouldn't do you any good."

    Greater love hath no man than that he lay down his immortal soul for another...

    This is exactly the sort of argument that I'm complaining about - that turns selflessness around to provide a hidden selfish advantage to it. Offering people treasures in heaven that are better and shinier than Earthly treasures is simply to appeal directly to their greed, and anyone who does it for that reason (or out of fear of hell) hasn't changed or truly repented. They're still looking out for themselves.

    The question is, would you give up your place in heaven too, as well as everything you have on Earth, to save somebody else from hell? And mean it - not just as a trick in the expectation that you'll get let off at the last second? If there truly was no reward for selflessness?

    But personally, I think it's the wrong question. The ideal is to be both selfish and selfless at the same time. To harm yourself is as much a sin as to harm others. It's just easier to forgive yourself for it.

    "but on an even more obvious interpretation, yes, this world is indeed flawed."

    How can perfection create imperfection?

    But as an "interpretation", yes of course.

    ""Eliminating poverty" is not our goal in life. If God wanted poverty to be eliminated, He'd just say the word."

    If God wanted sin to be eliminated, he'd just say the word. Or selfishness. Or lack of spirituality. This is just theodicy.

    "And if we do this, a funny thing seems to happen: apparently acting virtuously seems often to have the overall result of reducing evil in the world!"

    :-) Precisely my thought with regard to free market capitalism and the reduction of poverty!

    "Literally, that implies anarchy."

    Not entirely. Freedom is the freedom to take the consequences. And the laws are such that the consequences are inescapable. But you do have the choice.

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  26. Effectively, the state's changing the law has taken their productive work away from them. Is this morally acceptable?

    Yes it is. Your argument would prevent any changes in law if there was any particular person who "effectively" (nice weasel word) suffered an economic loss because of it. Since that is totally unrealistic it cannot provide immunity in principle from government action although prudential considerations remain. Furthermore, if this was truly the standard you wished to adopt you should have protested when Lydia made her ridiculous spiel about the employer prerogative of offshoring jobs because unions are so icky. Strangely I don’t recall any protest; so I suppose you think it is morally acceptable to move productive work away from Americans after all.

    Yep. So are those "small price increases."

    The alternative is that the working poor must work lots of overtime or have multiple jobs to support a family. News flash: constantly working over forty hours makes them far less productive employees at all of those jobs (in addition to being an absentee parent and having little if any leisure time).

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  27. "The alternative is that the working poor must work lots of overtime or have multiple jobs to support a family. News flash: constantly working over forty hours makes them far less productive employees at all of those jobs (in addition to being an absentee parent and having little if any leisure time)."

    what we're saying, though, is that these factors like price increases, wage compression, and so on mitigate the value of the minimum wage. At best (assuming you're right that this is THE alternative to raising the min. wage) we're left arguing whether six in one hand is better than a half dozen in the other.

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  28. Scott: I think the wage agreed by the employer and employee is, by presumption, a just wage in the absence of such factors as coercion, fraud, nondisclosure, and mistake.

    OK. Fraud, etc. are wrong in their own right, so I think that amounts to saying there is no such thing as a just (or unjust) wage — it's simply a thing that people agree to (or not). This has a certain plausibility: suppose, for instance, that McDuck says, "You could get paid what you need by taking a job next door, but I'll only pay you half that" and Donald accepts; it's surely unreasonable for him to come to work the next day and say, "By the way, I need more to live on so you have to double my wages."

    However, what if there is no other job in town that pays better? Donald would then by "coerced" into taking McDuck's offer (or an equivalently insufficient one elsewhere)... he's being coerced by circumstances, but not by McDuck himself, so presumably he still cannot demand better wages. Which sounds less plausible.

    In particular, I have in mind ideas such as in this passage from Rerum Novarum (which Tony quotes in the WWWW link posted earlier): Let the working man and the employer make free agreements, and in particular let them agree freely as to the wages; nevertheless [...] wages ought not to be insufficient to support a frugal and well-behaved wage-earner. If through necessity or fear of a worse evil the workman accept harder conditions because an employer or contractor will afford him no better, he is made the victim of force and injustice.

    If wages "ought" to be sufficient, but McDuck's offer is insufficient, then it seems he is indeed proposing an unjust wage. Why should wages be considered just only inasmuch as they stick to an agreement rather than being just in terms of sufficiency? (Where circumstances make this kind of sufficiency reasonable, of course.)


    [...] the extra money still needn't be an official part of his wage—and even if it is, that wouldn't suffice to make the original wage unjust.

    Agreed (given all the context that I snipped out).



    Matt Sheean: The only quibble I'd have is that it seems to me that some work is such that the wage will necessarily be at least some amount in order to reasonably compensate the employee.

    That's certainly a level of justice that goes at least a bit beyond mere agreement. This too certainly is plausible, and reasonable compensation is not necessarily going to be the same as reasonable sufficiency [to live and raise a family on]. But then how do we judge that difference? Is "just compensation" determined by market rates, say? Don't we then need to know how to decide whether market rates are just or not? It seems to me that all measurements have to come back to the human scale, if they are to be anchored in a proper sense of justice. So maybe "compensation" does have to be defined in terms of "sufficiency" after all. (As always, relative to circumstances and other factors; if a job takes one hour to do, then it would justly be worth one hour's worth of sufficiency, not an entire month's salary, and so on.)

    I'm inclined to think that her intuitions were correct, that I really did agree to a wage that, whether or not it was just, it was not actually the value of the work I was doing.

    So that surely makes the wage unjust — although if purely a mistake, nobody is morally culpable, but objectively the amount offered was not fair. (After all, your wife wasn't saying, "You should have gouged them for more because market prices would let you get away with it!") In fact, it couldn't be a mistake in the first place if there were not some (in principle) just amount to be mistaken about.

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  29. Me: Effectively, the state's changing the law has taken their productive work away from them. Is this morally acceptable?

    Step2 Yes it is. Your argument would prevent any changes in law if there was any particular person who "effectively" (nice weasel word) suffered an economic loss because of it. Since that is totally unrealistic it cannot provide immunity in principle from government action although prudential considerations remain.

    So, them's the breaks.

    Thank you, Step2, you walked right into it. If it is OK for the state to make a law that has the effect of an economically unfortunate (read: disastrous) outcome for some, because of the law's benefit for others, then the same is at least as applicable for the market system as a whole and for employers individually. If an employer pays a man the true value of his unskilled labor, and that isn't enough for him to live on, the employer's act is not an injustice to the man. The fact that the true value of his labor isn't sufficient for his living is just another "them's the breaks" situation. Laws of nature, like gravity. Can't help the fact that gravity hurts when you fall off a cliff.

    Personally, I kind of think that this applies more to the market as a whole and to employers individually, than it does to laws made by the legislator / the state. In the latter case, they are doing a positive act that they know disturbs the natural value ratios between economic acts for a designed end knowing full well there will be instances of negative outcomes, whereas the market and the employer are not doing any positive act to disturb the natural value ratios implied by the work and the products in themselves. That is to say, the legislative act and its range of effects are more deliberate and purposeful and thus the "unintended consequences" are at least a little more like "intended" than are those of the marketplace and the employer when an worker doesn't make enough to live on because his labor isn't worth that much.

    I wouldn't say that this automatically makes the law evil, I would say that rather that it has a higher bar to get over to establish that it is just. The presumptive situation is that choosing by law to disturb the level playing field of the marketplace and (as a consequence) making a few people unemployable has a significant hurdle to get past to show it is a just law, and I am not sure that "it helps more people" is, by itself, a form of reason that overcomes the presumption.

    People have a stronger kind of right to a fair shot at employment than people have a right to get a living wage out of their job even if the true value of their labor does not equal a living amount. The right to access to (or, in other terms, the right to SEEK fairly) humane conditions of living, including satisfying the spiritual need of being a productive member of society, is a higher and prior claim of right than the right to a sufficient living specifically from an unskilled job. The fact that a fair shot at employment for the barely employable may mean that some others cannot get a living wage without developing some skills more valuable to the marketplace is another example of "them's the breaks".

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  30. @Mr. Green:

    "Fraud, etc. are wrong in their own right, so I think that amounts to saying there is no such thing as a just (or unjust) wage — it's simply a thing that people agree to (or not)."

    What I have more in mind is that a just wage (for the two parties to a particular transaction) is one arrived at through a "just process." Fraud, coercion, and so forth, precisely because they're wrong, introduce injustice into that process. I'm just saying there's no single numerical outcome that represents a "just wage" in general, and if there's one specifically for these two parties, it is such because it's the outcome of a just process and not because of its numerical value. (For example, for any such proposed wage, it's possible in principle that McDuck could "hire" Donald for exactly the same wage by forcing him at gunpoint to sign a contract.)

    "So that surely makes the wage unjust[.] . . . In fact, it couldn't be a mistake in the first place if there were not some (in principle) just amount to be mistaken about."

    I think that in Matt Sheean's example, what he's mistaken about is just what he thinks it's reasonable for him to accept as a wage, price, or fee—that is, about how much he values his work and what he's willing to exchange it for. We can, if we like, say that he can mistakenly underestimate what he thinks is a "just wage," but that really just has to do with what he's willing to agree to; if it isn't worth that much to someone else, they can make him a counteroffer and indeed needn't trade with him at all. His "mistake" basically consists in giving up the negotiation process before he's actually satisfied with the outcome.

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  31. (Or perhaps I should say "before he's sure he's satisfied with the outcome." Actually we could even say "before he should be satisfied with the outcome" without thereby committing ourselves to the view that the wage/price/fee that should satisfy him is therefore objectively just.)

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  32. If through necessity or fear of a worse evil the workman accept harder conditions because an employer or contractor will afford him no better, he is made the victim of force and injustice.

    Perhaps. That alone doesn't mean, though, that the employer is the party responsible for the injustice. And of course the passage goes on to say this:

    In these and similar questions, however - such as, for example, the hours of labor in different trades, the sanitary precautions to be observed in factories and workshops, etc. - in order to supersede undue interference on the part of the State, especially as circumstances, times, and localities differ so widely, it is advisable that recourse be had to societies or boards such as We shall mention presently [notably unions], or to some other mode of safeguarding the interests of the wage-earners; the State being appealed to, should circumstances require, for its sanction and protection.

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  33. I don't suppose it matters how one defines capitalism. The important thing is to differentiate any theoretical free market with the economic system we have, which arose in the early modern period.

    This latter system is not a free market, and never has been; it is, as Rank Sophist points out, one whose most central features include the ownership of a large proportion of capital by a small proportion of the population. Other central features include the dynamic nature of our economic sysyem - it is never still, it relies on a dizzing whirl of invest and change, never seen before. And importantly in our economic system capital wealth tends to decline if it stands still. The other central feature worth mentioning is the power of the state. In our economic system the state is, and always has been, at the very centre of the economy, intervening largely to create, support, and increase the accumulation of capital in the minority who own most of it.

    Of course, our economic sysem has also had distinct phases, and we could mention some of the markers of our current phase.

    Many free market advocates, unfortunately, have a strange tendency to blur the actually existing economy with a theoretical free market. Kevin Carson called this vulgar libertarianism. When pushed such people usually admit that the economy is not really a free market, but are soon back to defending all sorts of actually existing nonsense as if we had a free market.

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  34. I think it is worth quoting Carson on vulgar libertarianism, he explains it pretty colourfully and forcefully:

    This school of libertarianism has inscribed on its banner the reactionary watchword: "Them pore ole bosses need all the help they can get." For every imaginable policy issue, the good guys and bad guys can be predicted with ease, by simply inverting the slogan of Animal Farm: "Two legs good, four legs baaaad." In every case, the good guys, the sacrificial victims of the Progressive State, are the rich and powerful. The bad guys are the consumer and the worker, acting to enrich themselves from the public treasury. As one of the most egregious examples of this tendency, consider Ayn Rand's characterization of big business as an "oppressed minority," and of the Military-Industrial Complex as a "myth or worse."


    The ideal "free market" society of such people, it seems, is simply actually existing capitalism, minus the regulatory and welfare state: a hyper-thyroidal version of nineteenth century robber baron capitalism, perhaps; or better yet, a society "reformed" by the likes of Pinochet, the Dionysius to whom Milton Friedman and the Chicago Boys played Plato.


    Vulgar libertarian apologists for capitalism use the term "free market" in an equivocal sense: they seem to have trouble remembering, from one moment to the next, whether they’re defending actually existing capitalism or free market principles. So we get the standard boilerplate article arguing that the rich can’t get rich at the expense of the poor, because "that’s not how the free market works"--implicitly assuming that this is a free market. When prodded, they’ll grudgingly admit that the present system is not a free market, and that it includes a lot of state intervention on behalf of the rich. But as soon as they think they can get away with it, they go right back to defending the wealth of existing corporations on the basis of "free market principles."


    Your rank and file libertarian, and mainstream conservative when talking economics, tends to have a large streak of vulgar libertarian in him.

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  35. @Jeremy Taylor:

    "Kevin Carson called this vulgar libertarianism."

    Indeed he did, and he's quite right to differentiate between state-sponsored crony capitalism and the free market whether or not he's on the winning side in the battle over terminology.

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  36. "The other central feature worth mentioning is the power of the state. In our economic system the state is, and always has been, at the very centre of the economy, intervening largely to create, support, and increase the accumulation of capital in the minority who own most of it."

    Indeed. I would actually say that this is the central feature worth mentioning, and is the single factor most responsible for the structural injustices of the current economy.

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  37. This combox is mostly spent, but I figured I would post comments of Paul VI's and Pius XI's that I found while reading around.

    Populorum Progressio:

    However, certain concepts have somehow arisen out of these new conditions and insinuated themselves into the fabric of human society. These concepts present profit as the chief spur to economic progress, free competition as the guiding norm of economics, and private ownership of the means of production as an absolute right, having no limits nor concomitant social obligations

    This unbridled liberalism paves the way for a particular type of tyranny, rightly condemned by Our predecessor Pius XI, for it results in the "international imperialism of money."(26)

    Such improper manipulations of economic forces can never be condemned enough; let it be said once again that economics is supposed to be in the service of man. (27)

    But if it is true that a type of capitalism, as it is commonly called, has given rise to hardships, unjust practices, and fratricidal conflicts that persist to this day, it would be a mistake to attribute these evils to the rise of industrialization itself, for they really derive from the pernicious economic concepts that grew up along with it. We must in all fairness acknowledge the vital role played by labor systemization and industrial organization in the task of development.


    Quadragesimo Anno:

    106. This dictatorship is being most forcibly exercised by those who, since they hold the money and completely control it, control credit also and rule the lending of money. Hence they regulate the flow, so to speak, of the life-blood whereby the entire economic system lives, and have so firmly in their grasp the soul, as it were, of economic life that no one can breathe against their will.

    107. This concentration of power and might, the characteristic mark, as it were, of contemporary economic life, is the fruit that the unlimited freedom of struggle among competitors has of its own nature produced, and which lets only the strongest survive; and this is often the same as saying, those who fight the most violently, those who give least heed to their conscience.

    108. This accumulation of might and of power generates in turn three kinds of conflict. First, there is the struggle for economic supremacy itself; then there is the bitter fight to gain supremacy over the State in order to use in economic struggles its resources and authority; finally there is conflict between States themselves, not only because countries employ their power and shape their policies to promote every economic advantage of their citizens, but also because they seek to decide political controversies that arise among nations through the use of their economic supremacy and strength.

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  38. The presumptive situation is that choosing by law to disturb the level playing field of the marketplace and (as a consequence) making a few people unemployable has a significant hurdle to get past to show it is a just law, and I am not sure that "it helps more people" is, by itself, a form of reason that overcomes the presumption.

    "Level playing field of the marketplace" = pure Randroid nonsense that only existed in her execrable fiction. Additionally I did not and do not concede minimum wage law makes anyone unemployable, only that some may suffer a temporary economic loss from it. I take it from Tony’s response the golden calf of the free market can never do wrong and a legislature can never do right.

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  39. Oh, Step2, you must have rolled in a pile of thoughtless slogans.

    I am under no delusions that we live in a truly free market with a level playing field. Seriously. Like the idealistic visions of "all men having dignified work" and "all men treated justly" and "all men contributing productively to the common good", I don't ever actually EXPECT to see it happen in this life. But, like the other visions, the nature of these goals helps inform the right kinds of behavior now and helps specify how far things the we are doing now fall away from the good. Justice isn't a a thing different in nature merely because most men suffer injustice at times, and the injustices point us to areas that need fixing. So too, SOME FORM of free market - that is to say, the common and regular freedom of a man to express the level of his desire for a product or service by offering something in return that, to him, holds roughly equal value - is an ideal that frequently does not exist in practice, but still informs where we need to apply corrections. Clearly, there ARE free exchanges between men (say, on luxury goods) that both parties feel perfectly free to walk away from without constraint, neither being conned or gypped out of something he needs, so it isn't somehow theoretically impossible to have free acts of exchange.

    I take it from Tony’s response the golden calf of the free market can never do wrong and a legislature can never do right.

    Completely wrong, and totally uncalled for. For one thing, I explicitly SAID that the institution of a minimum wage could be appropriate if given a sound justification. (I just set the bar on "justification" higher than you would like.) I also do not hold that the best market must needs be free from EVERY non-market constraint. I totally agree with the popes that unguided market forces are not enough to have a healthy society. I also agree with Leo XIII that not ALL of the constraints should be constructed by the government - unions, guilds, associations etc have important places too. Other forces from society should have a role, including just plain revulsion at inhuman practices, expressed in boycotts and other acts of social displeasure. And government too, in the appropriate ways.

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  40. @Jeremy Taylor:

    As one of the most egregious examples of this tendency, consider Ayn Rand's characterization of big business as an "oppressed minority[.]"

    Her actual phrase was "America's most persecuted minority," and Carson is right that it wasn't the Crazy Russian Lady's finest moment. Here's what Murray Rothbard had to say in response.

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  41. NiV: The ideal is to be both selfish and selfless at the same time. To harm yourself is as much a sin as to harm others.

    No — we have to look after ourselves, but not selfishly. And "giving up your place in heaven", etc., doesn't make sense, because it can never be right to do evil so that good may come of it. Doing the right thing for a less than pure motive is not as good as doing the right thing for a selfless motive, but it is still better than doing the wrong thing (even if the wrong thing has good consequences).

    How can perfection create imperfection?

    How can it not? The only thing that is completely perfect is God, and God is uncreated. So He has to create imperfect things. Well, I guess you mean relatively perfect, complete as the kind of things they are. And yes, of course God created a perfect world in that sense. Then we came along and messed it up. Man is really good at that.

    If God wanted sin to be eliminated, he'd just say the word. Or selfishness. Or lack of spirituality.

    There's the tricky issue of free will, that directly applies to "sin" in a way that it doesn't to poverty. But of course there is a connection, because our free actions can aggravate or alleviate poverty. And that's the point: fighting poverty results from our free actions; it's not something independently on a par with them. Thus what we do about poverty is dependent on what is moral or not. That an action reduces poverty is no guarantee that it is morally correct.

    >"And if we do this, a funny thing seems to happen: apparently acting virtuously seems often to have the overall result of reducing evil in the world!"
    :-) Precisely my thought with regard to free market capitalism and the reduction of poverty!


    I'm probably not as optimistic about capitalism as you are, but naturally I agree that many times it does work out that way. All I'm saying is that it doesn't always work out that way. Sometimes the morally correct action has materially worse results. But we ought to do it anyway.

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  42. Scott: What I have more in mind is that a just wage (for the two parties to a particular transaction) is one arrived at through a "just process."

    OK. That's fine as far as it goes, and I agree that it can't be only about the numerical value. But it seems to me that there's more to a wage than that, that brings with it an additional layer of justice. If you and I decide to play Monopoly, we can agree to play by the official rules, or we can make up extra rules about putting money on "Free Parking", etc. There is a certain justice involved (if I don't trick you into, say, accepting an extra rule that gives me an advantage, or if I don't take money off Free Parking when you aren't looking, things like that). But that's all there is — it's just a game, so agreeing to whatever rules makes it just in the only way that applies. I don't think a wage can be like that. Work isn't a game, it's something we have to do, and the reality of the world we live in imposes certain constraints that entail certain (in)justices in how we react to them. (Obviously this is not a very fleshed-out argument!)

    (For example, for any such proposed wage, it's possible in principle that McDuck could "hire" Donald for exactly the same wage by forcing him at gunpoint to sign a contract.)

    And if Donald could reasonably get another job, then we can't consider him to be coerced. And given the scenario as I described it, any coercion comes from Donald's circumstances — the circumstances may be unfair in themselves, but they certainly are not McDuck's fault. Yet surely McDuck can still take advantage of Donald. Perhaps Donald's circumstances are so constricted that he feels compelled to accept employment from McDuck. (McDuck controls most of the town, and other jobs either have requirements for which Donald is not qualified or wages that are even worse.) Suppose McDuck offers to pay Donald even less than he pays a Junior Woodchuck, just because he knows he has Donald over a barrel. Isn't that obviously wrong of him? And yet why is it wrong to take severe advantage and not to take "merely" slight advantage?


    His "mistake" basically consists in giving up the negotiation process before he's actually satisfied with the outcome.

    Hm, I figured I had a good point there, but I think you're right. (There still could be that additional level of justice, but being mistaken can't by itself show at which "level" the mistake applies, not without begging the question anyway.)

    That alone doesn't mean, though, that the employer is the party responsible for the injustice. "[...] it is advisable that recourse be had to societies or boards [...]"

    Yes, I think subsidiarity has an obvious advantage (at least in general) over going to the state for recourse — but first we still need to establish that there is something to seek recourse about.

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  43. @Mr. Green:

    "Suppose McDuck offers to pay Donald even less than he pays a Junior Woodchuck, just because he knows he has Donald over a barrel. Isn't that obviously wrong of him?"

    Sure, but again I think that has to do with the process, not the numerical value of the wage.

    Suppose, on the same set of assumptions, that McDuck offers to pay Donald even less than he pays a Junior Woodchuck because that's all he can afford: it's not really economical for him to hire another employee and the only reason he's hiring Donald at all is that he knows Donald needs the work. Same wage, different motive, and (it seems to me) no injustice; indeed he seems to be doing Donald a favor. At the very least I think it's not "obviously wrong" of McDuck to pay the same reduced wage on that basis.

    I think you'll find on further reflection that in general, any other relevant moral considerations that appear at first look to involve an "additional layer of justice" will similarly turn out to have to do with the process and not the result. But I could be wrong; if you think of something that seems to suggest an exception, let me know.

    I also suspect your sense that that "additional layer" exists has something to do with an obligation to match the prevailing wage (at least approximately). And I do agree that if somebody is being paid a wage that is far below the current market rate, that's cause for suspicion. But I don't think it's conclusive—partly because there are sometimes good (and just) reasons why someone would offer (and another would accept) wages that depart from the norm; partly because I don't think there's a non-circular argument that the prevailing wage is a "norm" in any specifically moral sense; and partly because, in most cases, the actually prevailing wage isn't necessarily the one that would prevail in a fully free market anyway. Here again, I'd want to know how the parties arrived at that wage before I could decide whether or not it was really "just"—and now we're back to process rather than result, even if I'd scrutinize the process a lot more closely because it resulted in such a wide departure from the prevailing wage.

    I suppose there's also at play here a sort of intuitive sense that a full-time employee "ought" to be able to support him(her)self and perhaps a family by working just that one job. I don't think that sort of "oughtness in the air" (paraphrasing Cardozo) will do for establishing any moral principles about what the employer ought to pay, though. The employer doesn't, after all, have to hire the employee at all. If, in doing so, he's making himself responsible for paying a "living wage," then he'll just hire fewer people and Donald will be out of work altogether rather than working for a low wage.

    At any rate, yes, I agree that there's something obviously wrong with McDuck's taking advantage of Donald's circumstances, but I don't think that fact in and of itself means that McDuck is obliged to hire him at a higher wage (or indeed to hire him at all).

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  44. I suppose there's also at play here a sort of intuitive sense that a full-time employee "ought" to be able to support him(her)self and perhaps a family by working just that one job. I don't think that sort of "oughtness in the air" (paraphrasing Cardozo) will do for establishing any moral principles about what the employer ought to pay, though.

    It is my belief that precisely co-terminal with that ought is another ought: that (to the extent he is able) the potential employee prepare himself for a job reasonably productive: get the schooling and training for it that makes him qualified for a job that realistically produces a living wage kind of wealth in the current circumstances, plus a little more for profit. A worker who never tries for a more difficult job than sweeping floors isn't a worker who has the right to benefit from the first "ought" above, sweeping floors just isn't that useful a work.

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  45. @Tony:

    I agree. The right to earn a living wage carries with it a duty at least to try to be worth that wage.

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  46. One very minor point, though:

    "A worker who never tries for a more difficult job than sweeping floors . . . "

    I know what you mean here, but talking of the difficulty of the job makes it sound as though you're relying on a labor theory of value. The point (and I know this is what you had in mind; I'm just clarifying it) is that the work of sweeping floors just isn't that valuable to an employer, no matter how much effort one puts into it. It's something pretty much anybody can do, and it isn't generally very important that it be done in any particular way or to any demandingly high standard of quality.

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  47. The point (and I know this is what you had in mind; I'm just clarifying it) is that the work of sweeping floors just isn't that valuable to an employer,

    Right, that's what I had in mind. It isn't that valuable to an employer, because the amount of increase in profitability it adds to the employer's overall operation (the amount it helps make his sales products bring more in) is very minor.

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